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  • Pre- and Post-Workout meal (heavy lifting)

    Hi there,

    this post is about:
    Lifting heavy weights with the goal of getting more muscles (bodybuilding), what is the best 'policy' regarding pre- and post-workout meal - what and when.
    I was wondering about that.
    [me: 58kg (168cm, bmi~19, don't know bodyfat, but look ripped, originally totally slim), bodybuilding since about 6months with 5 big exercises a la 2 sets, 2-3days/week]



    http://theplace.bz/redir.php?url=htt...e=channel_page
    This guy says:

    - don't put anything in your mouth after training for 30min to get more testosteron and growth hormones going
    - eat ~70g carbo (replenishing glycogen theory) and ~35g protein 30min after the training
    - eat this between 30 and 45min after the training, when you eat nothing Cortisol (bad) goes up



    My questions:
    - this 'wait 30min before you put anything into your mouth after training' was new to me - anyone with more knowledge, i would appreciate how you sort this information in

    - my plan would now be:
    30min after the training i eat 2 bananas (~60g carb) and 25g whey protein (in water) + 3g creatin
    (i take another 3g creatin daily in addition)




    2 Studies about pre- and postnutrition i am not exactly sure how to interpret:

    1.)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8...?dopt=Abstract
    - nine experienced male weight lifters were given
    water (Control) or an
    isocaloric carbohydrate (CHO; 1.5 g/kg body wt),
    protein (PRO; 1.38 g/kg body wt),
    or carbohydrate-protein (CHO/PRO; 1.06 g carbohydrate/kg body wt and 0.41 g protein/kg) supplement
    immediately and 2 h after a standardized weight-training workout.

    CHO and CHO/PRO stimulated higher insulin concentrations than PRO and Control.
    CHO/PRO led to an increase in growth hormone 6 h postexercise that was greater than PRO and Control.

    -> Me:
    Carbo + Protein ist best?
    What is your interpretation?



    2.)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract
    (EAC = Essential Amino acid-Carbohydrate supplement )
    - Six healthy human subjects participated in two trials in random order, PRE (EAC consumed immediately before exercise), and POST (EAC consumed immediately after exercise).

    In both trials (pre and post):
    - Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations were increased by approximately 130% after drink consumption
    - Amino acid delivery to the leg was increased during exercise and remained elevated for the 2 h after exercise
    - Phenylalanine disappearance rate, an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids, increased after consumption

    This was more with the pre-drink than post:
    - Delivery of amino acids (amino acid concentration times blood flow) was significantly greater in PRE than in POST during the exercise bout and in the 1st h after exercise (P < 0.05).

    - Total net phenylalanine uptake across the leg was greater (P = 0.0002) during PRE (209 +/- 42 mg) than during POST (81 +/- 19).

    These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg.

    -> me:
    Protein + carb immediately before training is better than after?


    (3.)
    Here the Primal Blueprint's take on loading carbs after training:
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/muscl...ing-and-carbs/
    - keep your workout time under 35min, even under one hour body does not need much glycogen to get through the training
    - eat protein in the window of 30-60min after training
    - glycogen is nicely filled up by the body throughout the day using proteins;

    - if you don't replenish the glycogen so fast, the body burns your fat instead
    (so take sugar and it burns the sugar, don't take sugar and it burns some bodyfat)

    - study: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/293/3/E83...

    "In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested."

    Ten healthy, fit men (20 ± 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to 3 crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed
    - 0.3 g·kg protein hydrolysate - PRO
    - 0.3 g·kg protein hydrolysate with 0.15 g * kg carbohydrate - PRO + LCHO
    - 0.3 g·kg protein hydrolysate with 0.6 g * kg carbohydrate - PRO + HCHO
    during a 6-h recovery period

    Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO

    Plasma glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO.
    Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01).

    Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments.

    -> so the 0.6g of kg (with me 58kg * 0.6 = 35g carbs = 1 banana) would make my plasma glucose rate of appearance and disappearane be greater and increase over time -> what does this mean?


    btw, here Primal Blueprint's take on bulking muscle: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/gain-...-build-muscle/
    and one on glycogen: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/glycogen/





    SUMMARY OF THE 3 STUDIES

    CARB + PROTEIN (difference to just protein, the study nr in this thread in brackets):
    - higher insulin (1.st study)
    - higher grwoth hormone 6h post exercise (1)

    - plasma glucose rate of appearance and disappearance was higher and increased even more after time (3)

    Same as Just PROTEIN (carbs + protein do this and only protein):
    - Blood and muscle phenylalanine concentrations higher (2)
    - Amino acid delivery higher during exercise till 2h after (2)
    - Muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids higher (2)

    - protein synthesis, protein breakdown, oxidation rate, whole body protein balance (3)

    [Essential Amino acid-Carbohydrate supplement = protein + carbs is it?]

    And the pre- and postworkout-drink comparision on study nr 2 is interesting. -> although it seems interesting - i mean as a bodybuilder you are never hungry anyway cause you eat so much, so of course you have a pre-meal before your workout. Am i missing something here?



    I have practically no visible fat (except about half a centimetre on the tummy), so i guess i would not need to worry about carbs after training instead of pure protein. I am curious about the pre-post workout drink findings - what should i eat before training and when? And the 30min waiting stuff from the video (don't put anything in your mouth 30min after training).


    What do you eat pre and post-workout and why?

    greets!



    ps
    4. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md92.htm article that is saying that carbs post workout replenish glycogen but may well blunt GH, insulin sensitivity & fat burning, from an evolutionary viewpoint protein only or a small amount of natural carbs should suffice


    "the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically."

    "Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity"

    "However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel."

    "By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body's metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise."

    "This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect."
    - he is some doctor and gives sources after the statements

    -> so i guess after this i go only protein + creatin 30min after workout
    (and see how fatigued i feel?)
    My Journal Road To Sixpack (with Pictures): http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread106846.html
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