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  • Vkiernan Journal

    Originally posted by Vkiernan View Post
    Jansz, Ok this is where I was at in early Oct.

    FT3 2.11 (1.71-3.71) bottom of range
    FT4 .9 (.7-1.48)
    TSH 1.3 (.35-4.94 this number tells me to not use thyroid supplementationok, you are taking 15mcg-T3, do not change that
    RT3 28 (11-32) top of range

    F testosterone 1.5 (.1-6.4)
    Estrodial 591 (11-212) this number tells me that you are heavily estrogen dominant, but need good test to ferret it all out in better detail)(should be sooner than latter, possibility of cancer)
    HS-CRP 1.3 <1 = low risk

    I am taking 90 mg pregnenolone
    100 7-keto dhea
    80-120 mg progesterone

    taking preg, prog, 7keto, says nothing, need to see results
    preg + prog together creates confussion, unless clear history is available on how you have arrived at this dosing

    a little T. Not sure how much just know it is small amount compared to what she had me on which was too much.
    I am taking Maca, selenium, iodine, d3, k2, a, resveratrol, dgl licorice, coq10, tumeric, fish oil, multi, 15 mcg t-3 (i think)
    ok you are taking T3 already, with your TSH as is, keep doing it, do not add or substract.
    about 1000 mg magnesium and God only knows what else.

    I was doing t4 only, then switched to Naturethroid due to new doc then switched to t3 only due to no progress with rt3 or ft3. I am feeling better though.

    My cortisol in July was a littler higher than it should be in the am, normal at noon and high at dinner and night.

    Phosphatidylserine (PS) at bed time???
    Before PS, when you wake up look up on sun or bright 11000K two or four tubes.
    On tubes you could probably look straight, directly.
    but sun, do not look straight on sun, (save retina), look down, but exposure face and lots of skin to the light.

    Currently, I am tired by 8:30 or 9 every night. Wake up at 6 every morning. I am thinking my cortisol is better than it was. I also was doing prednisone for the horrible poison ivy (couple rounds this summer plus had sinus surgery this spring). I know all these things mess with cortisol levels. I am going to retest early Jan. for thyroid and cortisol and anything else she will let me to see where progress is being made. I think I am LS but not at the muscle level due to soreness which ties totally to pregnenolone steal syndrome that I probably have considering I fit the hormone 101 blog perfectly.

    Do not get preoccupied with preg steal.
    Eat enough DHEA, 7ketoDHEA so you have DHEAs(Women 275-400 μg/dL ).
    Eat enough pregnenolone, so at day 3-4 of your cycle you have progesterone=1.4ng/mL or only slightly higher.
    Measure in blood prog and Estradiol,sensitive(LabCorp), you may possibly need to use Arimidex.
    In mean time, brocoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage, DIM, I3C.

    I am grateful to you trying to help me. Sometimes it is hard to read between the lines on what you are suggesting. Now that you have a baseline on me, maybe be more specific on recommending. I am will to slowly cut back on the t3. I do think I have more than enough cortisol unless I have reverted back to adrenal fatigue but I don't feel like that currently, though.

    This is very hard to do on my own. I know you have done it but I would really love a doc's help to support me more than I'm getting.

    yes it is very hard to get doctor's help.

    I am not sure if what I have written will help you,
    but for sure,
    it should make your numbers look better.

    Sometimes it is hard to read between the lines on what you are suggesting.
    I wish my English was good enough to express nuances.
    Just keep asking if it is not clear enough.
    I am not a doctor

    Estrodial 591 (11-212)
    You are 3x over the range, how fat are you?
    Where all this e2 is coming from??

    Leptin For Dummies

  • #2

    Originally posted by Vkiernan View Post
    Ok, I will keep asking. thanks.
    I weigh 120 and am 5' 4 1/2"
    I don't know where all of the estrogen is all coming from. Never used birth control. Family curse I believe. Pretty sure I have been this way since around 14 yrs old or so. I am just about 49. Had thermal ablation done for really bad TOM about 9 yrs ago or so. It was a godsend. I don't fit the bill for LR except for my bad rt3 ratio and I believe it is all stress. Married way to long to the first guy and up until my 2nd marraige 2 years ago life wasn't much fun. In between my divorce and the new guy, I'm pretty sure I went thru adrenal fatigue.

    Another note: I had gained an extra 20 lbs. when my third child was born and it took me years to lose that weight whereas with my first & second I lost it immediately. I finally lost it doing Atkins. I never gained it back and that was at least 13 years ago. I continued to watch what I eat after doing atkins. I am confused by the whole mess but have to believe it is eating sugar and grains and lot's of stress thrown in. When I say I am feeling better, you have no idea. The low D, T and thyroid really played a role with my mood. As I said before - I am soooo much better - my hubby might want to stay married to me.
    What exactly made you feel better?

    D is for vit D (right)?


    thermal ablation done for really bad TOM

    Estrogen dominance is the leading cause of fibroids and a precursor to a hormonal sensitive tumor. This condition is an epidemic largely ignored by conventional medicine. For this reason, preventive steps and early intervention is highly advisable.

    Fibroids are promoted by persistently high estrogen production. Without the monthly balancing effect of progesterone, the uterus continues to grow. Prevention and treatment of fibroids from a non-surgical perspective should therefore focus on reducing the level of estrogen in the body as well as increasing the level of progesterone (the antagonist to estrogen) level within.


    It would be a good idea to get your steroid hormone panel first.
    Your doc may have done some of it before (that is why you are getting pregnenolone and progesterone).

    I think you badly (for the last 10 years or more) need Arimidex,
    probably 1mg/day or 1mg/EOD

    pick one
    do blood tests of
    Estradiol, sensitive month latter.

    I am taking Arimidex 1mg/E5D to get from E2~50 to 20

    You need to get from E2=591 to 212 or less, (11-212)

    Last edited by JanSz; 12-15-2011, 11:11 AM.
    Leptin For Dummies


    • #3

      post #12175

      Originally posted by Vkiernan View Post
      Jansz, thank you. I completely understand the chicken vs elephant. Sound like you think I should just worry about the high estrogen for the moment and then go after other things when I have that resolved.

      See, problem is I don't know how to reduce the estrogen.

      I have been asking and no one has any answers. My doc says in time when I hit menopause that it will decrease on it's own. I can't believe it is not an issue that I shouldn't worry about. I am using a lot of progesterone. I could take DIM but that is the only other thing I know to do. I didn't want to change anything until I get tested again but maybe I should. I did find another doc that would cost me out of pocket but maybe it is time to do that very thing. I told her specifically what I needed in a good doc and she called me and left a message (I missed the call). I know I need a doc's help battling all of this.
      From my previous post, also here:

      It would be a good idea to get your steroid hormone panel first.
      Your doc may have done some of it before (that is why you are getting pregnenolone and progesterone).

      I thing you badly (for the last 10 years or more) need Arimidex,
      probably 1mg/day or 1mg/EOD
      pick one
      do blood tests of
      Estradiol, sensitive month latter.

      I am taking Arimidex 1mg/E5D to get from E2~50 to 20

      You need to get from E2=591 to 212 or less, (11-212)
      I am not able bo be more specific.
      It is situation where you have to titrate the dose until you figure out the correct dose.

      The general idea is to end up with

      progesterone & estradiol levels
      progesterone & estradiol ratios
      at least two days per your menstruation cycle.

      Historically you have very high estradiol (and estrogens), to a point that they caused fibroids or heavy bleedding and to remedy some of it you have had uterus lining ablation done.

      Ablation may have solved your bleeding problem but you still have high estradiol and minimal progesterone.

      Waiting for a time when estradiol subside is futile.
      You can't pop enough pills (preg + prog) to make P/E2 ratio reasonable.

      I suggest that you (as first approximation)

      A--- take enough Arimidex pills so
      on day 3-4 your E2~ (20-60)pg/mL
      on day 19-21 your E2~ (100-160)pg/mL

      B---take enough (pregnenolone, progesterone, 7ketoDHEA, DHEA, androstenedione, testosterone) pills/gells so
      on day 3-4 your progesterone~ (1.4--1.5) ng/mL
      on day 19-21 your progesterone~ (15-20) ng/mL

      One way to look at your P & E is to have them in good range, not below laboratory minimum not above laboratory maximum as figured for (20-25) year old healthy woman.

      The other way is to look at P/E ratio.
      It is molar ratio, in a bind weight ratio may be close enough.
      I heard that good ratio is (200-300)
      But one may not see significant changes down to ratio of 50, sometimes 20.

      I use LabCorp to do my testing, below is example of ranges:
      Male: 0.2-1.4 ng/mL
      • Follicular: 0.2-1.5 ng/mL
      • Ovulation: 0.8-3.0 ng/mL
      • Luteal: 1.7-27.0 ng/mL
      • Postmenopausal: 0.1-0.8 ng/mL
      Estradiol, Sensitive
      Male 3-70(pg/mL)
      Follicular phase 9-175(pg/mL)
      Periovulatory 107-281(pg/mL)
      Luteal phase 44-196(pg/mL)
      Postmenopausal female:
      Treated 42-289(pg/mL)
      Untreated 0-19(pg/mL)

      There is a handy calculator:

      InstaCalc Online Calculator

      Using this calculator, latter on we can figure future moves.


      Right now you have to reduce your estradiol by about 2/3

      from Estrodial 591 (11-212)
      E2~ (100-160)pg/mL
      that will be for days 19-21


      Last edited by JanSz; 12-15-2011, 11:15 AM.
      Leptin For Dummies


      • #4

        Estrodial 591 (11-212)
        three times over top range.

        Originally posted by DigitalSurgeon View Post
        That level of estradiol is pathologic and requires a workup. I think you will find the cause is in the gut and something is causing a liver detox of estrogen block. The causes are vast. It will require a good doc or naturopath to get it done. If they can not find the cause and characterize it as idiopathic or a high normal variant then I think going to aromatase inhibitors is OK. There are many natural aromatase inhibitors that you can use to get this done too.
        Idiopathic is an adjective used primarily in medicine meaning arising spontaneously or from an obscure or unknown cause.

        Idiopathic is where Vkiernan stands for the last 30+ years.
        pathologic=operative word

        Vkiernan is also on third husband and have a doubts how long he will last.
        She could use a help rather sooner than latter.

        Having E2 that is 3x over the top range
        and at the same time
        nill progesterone levels
        is a double whammy.

        natural aromatase inhibitors should be included (but do not expect much progress)
        Natural aromatase inhibitors include flavones, flavanones, resveratrol , oleuropein and others.
        Some of these can be purchased online such as chrysin, genistein, and quercetin.
        DIM, I3C
        brocoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage

        there are three commercial aromatase inhibitors
        Anastrozole (INN) (marketed under the trade name Arimidex)
        Letrozole (INN, trade name Femara)

        Since the plan is to reduce E2 but not eradicate it, no need for (GnRH)

        Aromatase inhibitors (AIs) have been developed primarily for use in either natural or surgical postmenopausal patients.
        In premenopausal women, the ovary can overcome the estrogen blockade by reflex increments of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), so AIs must be combined with a gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist to prevent the reflex LH and FSH increments.

        If she still want to procrastinate using Aromatase Inhibitors
        good idea would be to do urine test (preferably 24hr).

        Diagnostic Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventive Medicine - Genova Diagnostics
        Essential Estrogens™

        and pay special attention to
        2-Hydroxyestrone/16α-Hydroxyestrone Ratio

        if there is more 2-OHE1
        then there is Lower Risk of Breast Cancer
        can afford to spend time on xyz.

        Leptin For Dummies


        • #5
          Just to clarify, I am on 2nd hubby and have NO intentions of leaving. But, I still need help. Thanks Jansz.


          • #6
            Originally posted by Vkiernan View Post
            I just ordered that book and it should be here any day. Pretty excited to delve into it.
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            Leptin For Dummies


            • #7

              Originally posted by Vkiernan View Post
              Except in my case since I am estrogen dominant I believe it said that it inhibits the absortion of iodine. So this would mean I need to get hormones in line before supplementing. This is probably why I felt nothing from all the iodine I had been supplementing with. But what is strange, I have been est dom for a very long time. I started using iodine in the spring and it helped with the breast tenderness. So why would it not be working now? Also, at that thime I got my info from reading Brownsteins's book and was taking the b's and selenium as recommended. Ideas Grizz?
              Being estrogen dominant is not healthy.
              You have to be diligent in controlling this.

              Ways to reduce estrogens:

              increase progesterone
              use Arimidex (that will reduce (only) aromatase originated estrogens

              loose fat

              increase estrogen metabolism, cruciferous vegetables, DIM, I3C

              avoidance/ metabolism of xenoestrogens

              ovary removal

              not sure if there is a way to manipulate (depress) LH
              but (definitely) do not use HCG

              Estrogens are produced primarily by developing follicles in the ovaries, the corpus luteum, and the placenta.
              Luteinizing hormone (LH) stimulates the production of estrogen in the ovaries.
              Some estrogens are also produced in smaller amounts by other tissues such as the liver, adrenal glands, and the breasts.
              These secondary sources of estrogens are especially important in postmenopausal women.
              Fat cells also produce estrogen,[8]
              Leptin For Dummies


              • #8

                Not really sure what I changed that has made a difference but I did a lot of things. I am still waiting for my RT3 result to come back to know if I am really making progress or it is all shunting to RT3. I sure hope it is not.

                I started taking HC cuz my adrenal fatigue was at stage 7. Last step before failure. I then added DHEA 25 for a month or so and then 50 mg more of 7-keto to that. I also started taking pregnenolone about 100 per day then upped that about 60 more. I have stayed on my Armour since late January/February? at 2 grains per am. I have been taking DIM and Silymarin since last fall. I was making FT3 progress when I was on T3 only but my new doc didn't like that for my situation. But at the same time, I was only getting rid of the RT3 problem and not going to the root which was my adrenal issue. I have to believe it was the DHEA and the HC that changed things. I am no longer on the HC and I can tell as I am dragging butt. If my RT3 comes back low then I know my adrenals can't keep up and I have to back off the Armour so it doesn't further stress my body and make me fatigued. This would be great as I know things are getting better.

                He thinks I might have panhypopituitarism. If I do, this means I have to supplement hormones probably forever unless my body just started doing it on it's own. Anyway, for now I have to help my adrenals and get my pg/e2 ratio fixed. I need progesterone at this point. My estrogen has dropped substantially and I believe that is due to CT'ing 4-5 times a week in 53 degree water for a half hour. I did go thru 2 weeks of really bad pms and tom. You know that I had thermal ablation for bad tom's so I shouldn't get a tom but I did for a week. I have never in the past 12 or so years since I had it done had this. It is DUE to CT'ing. Crazy but it works. I know it was an estrogen dump. Some of my bad symptoms from it are now gone and have been for months.

                If you have questions, I have a journal at called Better late than never. Feel free to visit me there and I will respond for sure. Hope this helps you.