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  • #16
    Originally posted by Elliot View Post
    If you experienced a heart attack on Primal, then perhaps Primal is not the best diet for you. I think atherosclerosis and heart disease are generally symptoms of low thyroid hormones. Primal is probably not the best diet for raising thyroid hormones.
    So, back in the day when Primal, traditional food prep and eating was more the norm for the masses, I suppose we had a greater problem with heart disease and thyroid issues? Is that what you're saying? I thought heart disease was worse with the advent of SAD and refined foods. Please explain why Primal is worse for heart disease.
    Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
    Old Paths ... New Journeys

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    • #17
      Originally posted by John Caton View Post
      So, back in the day when Primal, traditional food prep and eating was more the norm for the masses, I suppose we had a greater problem with heart disease and thyroid issues? Is that what you're saying? I thought heart disease was worse with the advent of SAD and refined foods. Please explain why Primal is worse for heart disease.
      This is irrelevant, because it's reasoning based on passive observation, rather than controlled experiments, but if you want a response to it, here it is:

      Heart disease is not a new problem. It existed in more traditional societies, including those that ate "Primally." The Inuits had heart disease:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535749
      The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison populations. If the mortality from IHD is low, it seems not to be associated with a low prevalence of general atherosclerosis. A decreasing trend in mortality from IHD in Inuit populations undergoing rapid westernization supports the need for a critical rethinking of cardiovascular epidemiology among the Inuit and the role of a marine diet in this population.
      But heart disease rates are generally suppressed by infection rates. Hypothyroidism makes one vulnerable to both infection and heart disease. In societies without antibiotics, infections will generally kill people before heart disease gets a chance, thus artificially reducing the number of deaths by heart disease. People who die of tuberculosis have atherosclerosis like people who die of heart disease. They're the same group. Heart disease should not be as apparent among traditional societies, because they don't have antibiotics to cure infections.

      Traditional societies also often had high infant mortality rates. The infants who die young from infection may be the ones who would have been susceptible to heart disease in old age. High infant mortality rates effectively filter the population, removing the weak ones.

      Thyroid problems are common. Back when hypothyroidism was diagnosed via physical symptoms, rates were much higher. Broda Barnes estimated that as much as 40% of the population could be hypothyroid. Then that method of diagnosis was replaced with blood tests. The parameters for the blood tests have been scaled such that only about 5% of people qualify as hypothyroid. So the other 35% would have been diagnosed as hypothyroid, but now they are not, due to a change of definition. But they still show the physical symptoms.

      Thyroid problems are common, heart disease is not new, and none of this really matters because it's just observational. Science is based on controlled experiments, not epidemiology.

      In answer to your final question, heart disease is a symptom of low thyroid hormones. T3 is promoted by such things as glucose and insulin. It is inhibited by such things as glucagon and unsaturated fat. A low-carb diet, especially one with plenty of unsaturated fat (eg fish oil), should promote a lower T3 level than would be obtained on a higher-carb diet. Indeed, lower T3 levels have been observed on low-carb diets.
      Last edited by Elliot; 12-30-2015, 04:42 AM.
      My opinions and some justification

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      • #18
        Ok. Plenty to study here.
        Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
        Old Paths ... New Journeys

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Elliot View Post
          In answer to your final question, heart disease is a symptom of low thyroid hormones. T3 is promoted by such things as glucose and insulin. It is inhibited by such things as glucagon and unsaturated fat. A low-carb diet, especially one with plenty of unsaturated fat (eg fish oil), should promote a lower T3 level than would be obtained on a higher-carb diet. Indeed, lower T3 levels have been observed on low-carb diets.
          I am always learning :-)

          Can you clarify a few things?

          What is considered "low carb"?

          If insulin and glucose promote T3, doesn't protein increase insulin? In fact, doesn't some protein spike insulin higher than carbs?

          Unless living where the Inuits live, wouldn't a primal diet be generally high in saturated fats, not unsaturated?

          Thank you your all your detailed contributions!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Maximumpower View Post
            I am always learning :-)

            Can you clarify a few things?

            What is considered "low carb"?
            I would say the distinction between "low carb" and "medium carb" happens when the diet is around 25% to 30% carb, but that's an arbitrary distinction. The general rule is just that more carbs promote more T3.
            Originally posted by Maximumpower
            If insulin and glucose promote T3, doesn't protein increase insulin? In fact, doesn't some protein spike insulin higher than carbs?
            It depends on the protein. Protein can also stimulate glucagon, which would inhibit T3. Each amino acid can stimulate insulin and glucagon by different amounts.
            Originally posted by Maximumpower
            Unless living where the Inuits live, wouldn't a primal diet be generally high in saturated fats, not unsaturated?
            It depends. The "Primal Diet," as defined by Mark Sisson, endorses omega-3 fatty acids, though I don't recall if Mark has specified exactly how much unsaturated fat he thinks is optimal. But he seems to recommend pork and chicken, both of which have significantly more unsaturated fat than beef. Or, if by "primal" you just mean "traditional," then yes, I believe most traditional societies ate very little polyunsaturated fat.
            My opinions and some justification

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Elliot View Post
              The general rule is just that more carbs promote more T3.

              Protein can also stimulate glucagon, which would inhibit T3.
              You're making true statements that are still deceptive to most folks' perceptions of T3's role and value. T3 fluctuates just like insulin does, depending on blood glucose levels.

              Yes, carbs promote more T3 because T3 is necessary for glucose metabolism. If blood glucose is lower, T3 need is also lower.

              Conversely, yes, glucagon suppresses T3 simply because there is little or no glucose to metabolize.

              Lower T3 isn't the same problem with fat burners as it is with carb burners.

              T3 levels are less important than TSH levels that should remain normal regardless of carbs, fats or protein intake.
              Last edited by John Caton; 12-30-2015, 04:21 PM.
              Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
              Old Paths ... New Journeys

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                After the stent fitting etc, while in hospital, I was told that my total cholesterol level was 5.4 (UK, so no information on LDL /HDL levels) which I thought was OK? . I am utterly confused as to why this should happen? Any ideas where I have gone wrong?
                I'm really sorry this has happened. One thing however is apparent. The primal/paleo meat-based, high saturated fat diet is NOT helping. It’s logical to conclude that while your cholesterol (208mg/dl, equivalent?) is practically normal by current standards (recs under 200mg/dl), it wasn’t low enough to prevent the atherosclerosis and damage that occurred. According to Dr. Greger of Nutritionfacts.org, in the video below, the optimal physiologic levels should be under 150 mg/dl and LDL under 70 mg/dl. And those like yourself who’ve already had a cardiac event, should target even lower levels than that.
                http://nutritionfacts.org/video/opti...esterol-level/(<5min video)

                http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/book...verse/excerpt/
                In this excerpt of Dr. Esselstyn’s book, one of his patients, Dr. Joseph Crowe, a breast cancer surgeon at the Cleveland Clinic, had even lower stats than yours. His cholesterol was 156 mg/dl and LDL 98 mg/dl, was not overweight, no diabetes, no HBP, he exercised and was fit, no family history and STILL, he got a heart attack at 44. His “widowmaker” was severely diseased. He didn’t/couldn’t get surgery. He apparently decided against meds, started a plant based diet, cholesterol dropped to 89 mg/dl and LDL to 38 mg/dl, and his follow up angiogram at 2.5 yrs later showed normal.

                Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                I am now back home with loads of tablets, etc etc (including a statin which I don't want and will stop once I've had my various follow up consultancies, cardiac rehab etc etc). And of course, dietary advice recommends "vegetable oils", avoid sat fats, eat heart healthy grains, avoid red meat - all the stuff I don't believe in.

                I've been 'paleo" / "primal" for quite a lot of years now - initially VLC, then added white potatoes, occasional white rice and occasional (well soaked) legumes. I eat fish, organic grass fed beef, lamb and free range chicken, loads of organic veg, organic fruit, butter from grass fed cows, organic beef fat from grass fed cattle, olive oil, lots of herbs, spices, turmeric, organic cocoa powder and chocolate, loads of eggs, some cheese from grass fed cattle - all sat fat but not to excess.

                I don't intend to change this - but should I be unlucky enough to ever have another heart attack and not survive - I will have been a standing example to the "sceptics" that Ancel Keys et al were correct all along!!!
                Maybe they were. I also don’t see how doing more of the same will yield any different results. You might need drastic changes and do the complete opposite of what you’ve been doing. And from all the links below, the common thread is that eliminating animal products, cutting dietary fat down to 10% or less and eating a plant-based diet, has been crucial in improving the health of heart disease patients.
                http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/success-stories/
                http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf
                http://www.dresselstyn.com/Esselstyn...-July-2014.pdf
                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/
                Last edited by KimLean125byMar15; 12-30-2015, 06:27 PM.
                *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
                *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
                *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

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                • #23
                  We'll, thanks for all the comments! Lots to think about, picking my way through various suggestions and advice (some contrary to others!) but present decisions are to increase raw veg and fruit, slightly reduce animal products and sat fat, and still completely avoid wheat, soy, industrially produced oils (which I think are really bad). I shan't be following Esselstyn - sorry!
                  And to Elliot - confused about some of your comments. Is high T3 a good or a bad thing??!! If good - how to raise it? If bad - then the opposite.
                  Tanks all, and a happy New Year to you all.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                    We'll, thanks for all the comments! Lots to think about, picking my way through various suggestions and advice (some contrary to others!) but present decisions are to increase raw veg and fruit, slightly reduce animal products and sat fat, and still completely avoid wheat, soy, industrially produced oils (which I think are really bad). I shan't be following Esselstyn - sorry!
                    And to Elliot - confused about some of your comments. Is high T3 a good or a bad thing??!! If good - how to raise it? If bad - then the opposite.
                    Tanks all, and a happy New Year to you all.
                    T3 is good. It is promoted by such things as glucose, insulin, sodium, magnesium, and zinc. It is inhibited by such things as glucagon, unsaturated fat, and raw cruciferous vegetables.

                    Originally posted by John Caton
                    T3 levels are less important than TSH levels that should remain normal regardless of carbs, fats or protein intake.
                    What leads you to say this?
                    Last edited by Elliot; 12-31-2015, 09:05 AM.
                    My opinions and some justification

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Maximumpower View Post
                      I am always learning :-)

                      Can you clarify a few things?

                      What is considered "low carb"?

                      If insulin and glucose promote T3, doesn't protein increase insulin? In fact, doesn't some protein spike insulin higher than carbs?

                      Unless living where the Inuits live, wouldn't a primal diet be generally high in saturated fats, not unsaturated?

                      Thank you your all your detailed contributions!
                      Friend, one of the reasons that I love Mark Sisson, besides the fact that I consider his advice saving my life, is that you don't even need to buy his books or products. He puts it all up here on the website for free. All your questions and many more can be answered by doing your own poking around. Go to the home page and look on the right side. Everything you need to know to get going or get better, including Primal 101.

                      BTW, I did buy his epoch Primal Blueprint book, several copies to share, too.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        @KimLean: My jaw dropped reading that advice. So wrong at so many levels.

                        1) Total cholesterol has almost zero to do with atherosclerosis. The book title, "The Great Cholesterol Con," says it all.
                        2) For years, 250 TC was considered just fine, then "they" decided it wasn't low enough, even though there's no evidence to support the 200 or below mantra. Could it have anything to do with the advent of (LDL) cholesterol lowering drugs? Nah........
                        3) Total cholesterol readings that you and the good doctor propose bring a whole host of problems along with it. https://www.bing.com/search?q=danger...ZI&form=MOZSBR The short list includes anxiety, depression, suicide, and stroke.
                        4) Analysis and metaanalysis consistently show that TC levels of around 250 is probably optimal, with a range of somewhat under 200 towards 300. There is HUGE individual variation what is normal.

                        And back to #1, TC is a poor marker of health. Any doctor relying on that without delving into the sub-particles and their ratios should have his license revoked.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by OnTheBayou View Post
                          @KimLean: My jaw dropped reading that advice. So wrong at so many levels..
                          Yep, don't bother trying to convince the vegan troll. They post those discredited theories repeatedly.
                          Last edited by NewOldGuy; 12-31-2015, 10:23 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                            T3 is good. It is promoted by such things as glucose, insulin, sodium, magnesium, and zinc. It is inhibited by such things as glucagon, unsaturated fat, and raw cruciferous vegetables.
                            Again, using factually correct statements, but giving incomplete answers, you are being pretty deceptive. Your high carb bias is showing.

                            How is T3 good? Is low T3 bad? Like insulin, it is neither good or bad. Like insulin it is both good and bad. It is good when needed, and bad if present when not needed. When is T3 needed? It is needed when glucose is high, just like insulin is needed. If glucose is low, insulin is low. Same with T3.

                            T3 attaches to mitochondrial receptors to assist in production of ATP from glucose. T3 transcribes genes related to other hormones whose jobs involve glucose metabolim. T3 is necessary therefore, for carb metabolism. One sure fire way to deplete T3 is a chronically high carb diet.

                            Would you intentionally eat carbs just to raise insulin? Why would anyone eat carbs just to raise T3?
                            Last edited by John Caton; 12-31-2015, 10:28 AM.
                            Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
                            Old Paths ... New Journeys

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by John Caton View Post
                              Again, using factually correct statements, but giving incomplete answers, you are being pretty deceptive. Your high carb bias is showing.
                              Calling my statements deceptive shows your low-carb bias.
                              Originally posted by John Caton
                              How is T3 good? Is low T3 bad?
                              T3 is good because it promotes multiple functions important for long-term health, like heart health and the immune system. It sounds like you think T3's only purpose is to promote glucose oxidation, like it's an analog of insulin. It does much more than that. Removing an animal's thyroid, or inhibiting it with chemicals, causes heart disease, which was the main topic of this thread. Supplementing the missing thyroid hormones cures the heart disease.
                              Originally posted by John Caton
                              Like insulin, it is neither good or bad. Like insulin it is both good and bad. It is good when needed, and bad if present when not needed. When is T3 needed? It is needed when glucose is high, just like insulin is needed. If glucose is low, insulin is low. Same with T3.
                              If you believe T3 is only needed on a high-carb diet, then we disagree here.
                              Originally posted by John Caton
                              T3 attaches to mitochondrial receptors to assist in production of ATP from glucose. T3 transcribes genes related to other hormones whose jobs involve glucose metabolim. T3 is necessary therefore, for carb metabolism. One sure fire way to deplete T3 is a chronically high carb diet.
                              This is a description of a postulated mechanism.
                              Originally posted by John Caton
                              Would you intentionally eat carbs just to raise insulin?
                              Well, yes, but it's not the insulin that I specifically want. It's the general response to insulin and carbs, which includes thyroid hormone production.
                              Originally posted by John Caton
                              Why would anyone eat carbs just to raise T3?
                              Presumably, to obtain the effects of thyroid hormone, like heart health and immune function.
                              My opinions and some justification

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by NewOldGuy View Post
                                Yep, don't bother trying to convince the vegan troll.
                                Ha! I wish! No self-respecting vegan troll would do what I did on christmas....yup...I ate eight..EIGHT!!..slices of cheese cake. 2800 calories it was. Went cycling after that so I think I've worked it off by now. Should have read the label though. But yeah, no, not vegan, just open minded about the health benefits of a plant-based diet. Happy new year!
                                Last edited by KimLean125byMar15; 12-31-2015, 10:54 AM.
                                *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
                                *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
                                *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

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