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  • #31
    Originally posted by Elliot View Post
    Calling my statements deceptive shows your low-carb bias.
    T3 is good because it promotes multiple functions important for long-term health, like heart health and the immune system. It sounds like you think T3's only purpose is to promote glucose oxidation, like it's an analog of insulin. It does much more than that. Removing an animal's thyroid, or inhibiting it with chemicals, causes heart disease, which was the main topic of this thread. Supplementing the missing thyroid hormones cures the heart disease.
    If you believe T3 is only needed on a high-carb diet, then we disagree here.
    This is a description of a postulated mechanism.
    Well, yes, but it's not the insulin that I specifically want. It's the general response to insulin and carbs, which includes thyroid hormone production.
    Presumably, to obtain the effects of thyroid hormone, like heart health and immune function.
    You bet I have a low carb bias. I've been both and prefer low carb.

    There is a difference between stimulating T3 synthesis and signaling T3's hormonal response. Synthesis is determined by TSH. High carbs call for the hormonal actions. Those are 2 separate functions.

    The masses have a general low T3 problem and it ain't for the lack of carbs. If high carbs raise T3 we would not have the low T3 crisis we have, would we?
    Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
    Old Paths ... New Journeys

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    • #32
      Originally posted by John Caton View Post
      You bet I have a low carb bias. I've been both and prefer low carb.

      There is a difference between stimulating T3 synthesis and signaling T3's hormonal response. Synthesis is determined by TSH. High carbs call for the hormonal actions. Those are 2 separate functions.
      T3 synthesis is determined by more than TSH. Much of the body's T3 is produced by the liver. This process is affected by a variety of variables, some of which I've previously listed.
      Originally posted by John Caton
      The masses have a general low T3 problem and it ain't for the lack of carbs. If high carbs raise T3 we would not have the low T3 crisis we have, would we?
      We would, indeed. I get the impression you view the standard American diet as high-carb, but it's more like medium-carb. By choice, people will usually eat a diet that is about 45-50% carb. If you call that high-carb, then you're using that term to refer to a rather large interval.

      Polyunsaturated fat is common in the American diet, as is magnesium deficiency. Both would inhibit thyroid hormone production. Conventional wisdom recommends a low-fat diet, but also calorie and salt restriction, both of which would be counterproductive. I don't think, given what they eat, that the average American would be expected to have great thyroid hormone levels.

      EDIT: I decided to re-write the whole thing.
      Last edited by Elliot; 12-31-2015, 11:25 AM.
      My opinions and some justification

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      • #33
        Originally posted by OnTheBayou View Post
        @KimLean: My jaw dropped reading that advice. So wrong at so many levels.
        At least it was practical and supported by the evidence linked. And whether the OP is interested in it or not, it seemed to have worked for those like him who've had heart attacks. Maybe it will interest other passers-by. Also, it answered the OP's direct question which was: "I am utterly confused as to why this should happen? Any ideas where I have gone wrong?"

        I gave him my 2c. What's your idea? Primal a little bit harder? Your only contribution so far was to tell him that he got the date of his heart attack wrong. Really helpful....
        *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
        *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
        *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

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        • #34
          Originally posted by John Caton View Post
          Again, using factually correct statements, but giving incomplete answers, you are being pretty deceptive. Your high carb bias is showing.

          How is T3 good? Is low T3 bad? Like insulin, it is neither good or bad. Like insulin it is both good and bad. It is good when needed, and bad if present when not needed. When is T3 needed? It is needed when glucose is high, just like insulin is needed. If glucose is low, insulin is low. Same with T3.

          T3 attaches to mitochondrial receptors to assist in production of ATP from glucose. T3 transcribes genes related to other hormones whose jobs involve glucose metabolim. T3 is necessary therefore, for carb metabolism. One sure fire way to deplete T3 is a chronically high carb diet.

          Would you intentionally eat carbs just to raise insulin? Why would anyone eat carbs just to raise T3?
          Your take on T3 is frightening, not mention short sighted.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by John Caton View Post
            You bet I have a low carb bias. I've been both and prefer low carb.
            I'm completly opposite, I have a high carb bias, I've been both and I prefer high carbs.

            Doing serious high intensity training low on carb is like entering the lower regions of Hell...
            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            - Schopenhauer

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            • #36
              Originally posted by marcadav View Post
              Your take on T3 is frightening, not mention short sighted.
              My apologies. My presentation was frighteningly simplistic and narrow.

              I know that thyroid issues and hormonal issues are rampant and incredibly complex. I did not mean to diminish the importance of T3 to all body systems.

              I was only trying to point out that increasing carbs for the purpose of increasing T3 was a bad reason. Glucose metabolism simply requires more T3 and stimulates T4 to T3 conversion to meet the need via cortisol reduction. Glucose inhibits cortisol. Cortisol inhibits T3 conversion from T4. Therefore, if cortisol is reduced, T3 levels rise to meet the increased demand of glucose metabolism.

              High T3 can stimulate gluconeogenesis. Muscle wasting isn't anything I want so why would i want high T3 if my metabolism doesn't demand it. As long as TSH is normal and adequate T4 is in tissues, there's not a problem with lower T3. Sorry if that is what you found frightening or short sighted.

              The only controversial point I made, but with some support, is that a chronically elevated T3 level stretches thin what little iodine is available for the thyroid. There's an evolutionary reason T4 is made preferentially while remaining relatively inactive. When needed, some converts to T3, the active form. In the meantime, precious iodine is conserved in T4.
              Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
              Old Paths ... New Journeys

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              • #37
                Originally posted by John Caton View Post
                The only controversial point I made, but with some support, is that a chronically elevated T3 level stretches thin what little iodine is available for the thyroid. There's an evolutionary reason T4 is made preferentially while remaining relatively inactive. When needed, some converts to T3, the active form. In the meantime, precious iodine is conserved in T4.
                I don't understand this reasoning. You say "chronically elevated T3 level stretches thin what little iodine is available for the thyroid." But the thyroid needs iodine to make thyroid hormones. If you already have high thyroid hormones, then your thyroid does not need any more iodine, because its job is already done. And how does T4 "conserve" iodine?
                My opinions and some justification

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                  I don't understand this reasoning. You say "chronically elevated T3 level stretches thin what little iodine is available for the thyroid." But the thyroid needs iodine to make thyroid hormones. If you already have high thyroid hormones, then your thyroid does not need any more iodine, because its job is already done. And how does T4 "conserve" iodine?
                  With a half life of only 1 day, you cannot sustain the higher T3 level without daily replenishment. And that depletes the limited resource, iodine.

                  T4 is inactive, contains 4 molecules of iodine (when only 3 are needed by T3) and has a half life of 7 days. Therefore, it is a storage medium, with an iodine surplus that lasts 7 times longer than T3. That's what I meant by "conserve".

                  But the point is that iodine is limited and the faster T4 is converted to T3 needlessly, the faster iodine is depleted.
                  Last edited by John Caton; 12-31-2015, 04:18 PM.
                  Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
                  Old Paths ... New Journeys

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by John Caton View Post

                    The only controversial point I made, but with some support, is that a chronically elevated T3 level stretches thin what little iodine is available for the thyroid. There's an evolutionary reason T4 is made preferentially while remaining relatively inactive. When needed, some converts to T3, the active form. In the meantime, precious iodine is conserved in T4.
                    A useful nugget here I think. So would increasing my use of sea vegetables - or even supplementing iodine (I remember a very long and acrimonious thread about iodine supplementing) be beneficial? I don't eat a great deal of fish - perhaps once a week.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                      A useful nugget here I think. So would increasing my use of sea vegetables - or even supplementing iodine (I remember a very long and acrimonious thread about iodine supplementing) be beneficial? I don't eat a great deal of fish - perhaps once a week.
                      My apologies, breadsauce, for this thread spinning out like this. I know this is a critical issue for you, the surprise attack, more so than for we spinners out here just debating.

                      To your question, sea vegetables are a good choice for iodine. I don't generally support supplementation of iodine, but liquid kelp is a pretty good way if you choose to supplement. Shrimp supplies a healthy iodine dose. It's my favorite source. But, don't overlook other minerals as well, for good thyroid hormone functioning, like selenium and magnesium.
                      Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
                      Old Paths ... New Journeys

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                        A useful nugget here I think. So would increasing my use of sea vegetables - or even supplementing iodine (I remember a very long and acrimonious thread about iodine supplementing) be beneficial? I don't eat a great deal of fish - perhaps once a week.
                        i am not a proponent of iodine supps either, but more sea vegetables and fish will only help.
                        As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                        – Ernest Hemingway

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                        • #42
                          "in the early hours - taken to coronary care unit in Frimley Park Hospital, apparently I had a blocked RH coronary artery (?)as well as "severe arterial plaque" and narrowing of the artery"


                          Hi Breadsauce,

                          It's amazing when you hear a story like yours, especially when it's so close to home. When I read "Frimley Park Hospital" my jaw nearly hit my knee. I live within a 2 minute walk from the hospital, so it automatically caught my attention. I hope you're on the road to recovery.

                          I guess the other reason I'm hooked is, that I have slightly higher cholesterol numbers to you and I have noticed that my fitness levels have unbelievably dipped in the last couple of years, with real heavy legs during exercise, breathlessness even after walking up a couple of flight of stairs and even struggling to complete a 2 mile run. I'm 38, 5'9, 154lbs, so I'm slim but I fear that I could be heading down the same road as you.

                          I have ALWAYS eaten eggs, chicken, butter, milk and I'm starting to think this diet/lifestyle is not for me. I don't want to experience what you have, so I'm going to look at a different path.

                          Would love to hear how you're getting on and what or if you are doing different.

                          Gaz

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                            We'll, thanks for all the comments! Lots to think about, picking my way through various suggestions and advice (some contrary to others!) but present decisions are to increase raw veg and fruit, slightly reduce animal products and sat fat, and still completely avoid wheat, soy, industrially produced oils (which I think are really bad). I shan't be following Esselstyn - sorry!
                            I'm sorry you had to go through this! In my opinion, you've just been led down the wrong path. Clearly. It's unfortunate that you are unwilling to look at Esselstyn's work. It's literally the only proven method that we know of today that will reverse heart disease. It would save your life, any other path is just guesswork. Some of the people giving you advice have actually had heart attacks themselves, I wouldn't put too much stock in their advice to be frank. At least consider the plant based way, I mean why not? It's delicious, and proven. Just "slightly reducing animal products and saturated fat" isn't going to cut it my friend.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Michigan View Post
                              Maybe adding some fermented cod liver oil, tumeric tablets, and bone broth can help you in tackling that inflammation. Afterall, heart disease is an inflammatory process. I wish you the best of luck.
                              The inflammation only triggers a heart attack when your arteries are clogged. I think we all truly know which foods clog the arteries, even if some of us don't want to believe it.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                                about 1/2 of all heart attacks occur in people with "normal" cholesterol numbers. that is only part of the puzzle.

                                good luck on the mend.
                                His levels aren't normal. Even according to mainstream doctors, his number of 208 mg is in the high risk category. You aren't safe from heart attacks until you are below 150 mg. I've never heard of someone having a heart attack with numbers that low who didn't have prior heart disease.

                                Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                                Another nail in coffin against the heart attacks being caused by high cholesterol, then?!
                                His cholesterol is high though? See above.

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