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  • #91
    Originally posted by Kasey View Post
    And you have pictures to prove that? Or should we take your word for it? With all your studies, and mine, you are the one who has actually had a heart attack so if I'm an outsider looking in, I sure as heck wouldn't be taking your advice over people like Esselstyn and other vegan doctors who keep getting results with the theories you claim are debunked.

    I do have pictures and video. I have had 3 echo-cardiograms, and 2 GXT stress tests. Your mentioning my heart attack is a red herring, as the changes I made in diet and lifestyle were after that. I'm now in the best health of my adult life, at 54. My HDL stays at 65 or 70, my TG under 100, and my fasting blood glucose is about 90. My resting pulse is 50. My blood pressure is 115 over 65. I can run 10 miles in 90 minutes. I don't even care what my LDL level or total C is, because my NMR lipid profile shows I have the large fluffy particle type and low particle count. My MI risk at this point is lower than the majority of the population.

    My diet includes a lot of meat, but I would not call it a high fat diet. In volume I eat more vegetables than meat, which is standard paleo. This idea that paleo consists of eating meat and butter and cream with maybe a few veggies thrown in is wrong. We/I eat tons of vegetables. But optimal health means eating meat and eggs and seafood too. And saturated fat is important, particularly for men. Cutting all those out might lower your MI risk, I don't know. But it doesn't lower your all-cause mortality risk, as most people will develop hormonal or other problems on an all-vegetarian diet. If you don't, good for you. But you should preach it somewhere else, instead of trolling paleo forums. You aren't converting anyone here.

    And yes, Esselstyn's theories about cause and effect for CAD have been widely discredited, just like Colin Campbell's. You can believe what you want.

    And by the way, the most harmful foods for metabolic diseases and CAD all come from plants. Refined sugars, refined flours, and polyunsaturated seed oils. If you go all veggie but cut those out too (as Esselstyn's subjects did) then you will have beneficial effects. But if you just cut out all animal products and keep eating those 3 things, you will eventually die from them.
    Last edited by NewOldGuy; 01-06-2016, 10:25 AM.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by KimLean125byMar15 View Post
      Actually, no Kasey, that's not what Breadsauce was doing at all. By his own account, even though he eats veggies, he said his food was centered around meat and fat, which to me suggests most if not all meals. What Gorbag is suggesting is red meat, chicken, dairy and eggs about once or twice a week, and seafood about twice a week. That would be a very significant change from what breadsauce was doing and I think it's actually very good advice.

      I also support his advice to eat plenty of both cooked and raw veggies, plus starchy foods. Potatoes, rice, oatmeal, all kinds of beans and lentils, all kinds of veggies and fruits etc, there's more to plant food than raw salads and leafy greens.
      Actually, what I said was that I eat fish once or twice a week, meat or chicken or offal every day, eggs some days each week, some white potatoes or white rice each day, some sat fat with most meals - and a LOAD of veg. I shall add raw veg to this, more fruit (neither of which I'm mad about), and cut fats down. But I would consider that I ate pretty well anyway - 50% of what I have eaten for years will, by volume, have been vegetables. I'm happy with well soaked legumes, some nuts. You say "centred round meat and fat" - there are some of these at most of my meals. But vegetables are there in quantity - and variety. This is from my original post

      "I eat fish, organic grass fed beef, lamb and free range chicken, loads of organic veg, organic fruit, butter from grass fed cows, organic beef fat from grass fed cattle, olive oil, lots of herbs, spices, turmeric, organic cocoa powder and chocolate, loads of eggs, some cheese from grass fed cattle - all sat fat but not to excess."
      Last edited by breadsauce; 01-06-2016, 10:58 AM.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
        [FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3]



        based on the u.s. per capita consumption, i doubt the op has been eating much fish at all. looks like the op has been eating lots of meat and fat and not exercising all that much.

        look, i don't run around any vegan fora proselytizing that y'all will die without a daily ribeye. it's entirely possible for the op to get healthy without living on an ascetic monastic diet of lentils and kale.
        Actually, I eat fish about two times a week - sometimes more, if I count herring roes (milts) which I eat when I can get them, and prawns (shrimp) occasionally. Lots of veg, as mentioned in the original post, and exercise in the form of brisk walking for about an hour most days. More strenuous exercise is a problem as it tends to fire up the asthma. Which I am presently seeing a consultant about and hopefully, it will be controlled to the extent that I shall be able to exercise much more.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by NewOldGuy View Post
          I do have pictures and video. I have had 3 echo-cardiograms, and 2 GXT stress tests. Your mentioning my heart attack is a red herring, as the changes I made in diet and lifestyle were after that. I'm now in the best health of my adult life, at 54. My HDL stays at 65 or 70, my TG under 100, and my fasting blood glucose is about 90. My resting pulse is 50. My blood pressure is 115 over 65. I can run 10 miles in 90 minutes. I don't even care what my LDL level or total C is, because my NMR lipid profile shows I have the large fluffy particle type and low particle count. My MI risk at this point is lower than the majority of the population.

          My diet includes a lot of meat, but I would not call it a high fat diet. In volume I eat more vegetables than meat, which is standard paleo. This idea that paleo consists of eating meat and butter and cream with maybe a few veggies thrown in is wrong. We/I eat tons of vegetables. But optimal health means eating meat and eggs and seafood too. And saturated fat is important, particularly for men. Cutting all those out might lower your MI risk, I don't know. But it doesn't lower your all-cause mortality risk, as most people will develop hormonal or other problems on an all-vegetarian diet. If you don't, good for you. But you should preach it somewhere else, instead of trolling paleo forums. You aren't converting anyone here.

          And yes, Esselstyn's theories about cause and effect for CAD have been widely discredited, just like Colin Campbell's. You can believe what you want.

          And by the way, the most harmful foods for metabolic diseases and CAD all come from plants. Refined sugars, refined flours, and polyunsaturated seed oils. If you go all veggie but cut those out too (as Esselstyn's subjects did) then you will have beneficial effects. But if you just cut out all animal products and keep eating those 3 things, you will eventually die from them.
          This what I'm aiming for - I think I've overdone the fats, perhaps - too much cheese, cream but I have reduced them a lot. I do believe that sat fat is, however, essential to well being. And I agree totally about refined sugars, flours and polyunsaturated seed oils. They have not been a part of my diet for a long long time. Thanks for your posts.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Kasey View Post
            How is it not meaningful? A person had clogged arteries, went plant based and it reversed. That's pretty impressive to me. He is duplicating his results over and over again, if it was just one person, no one would continue to follow his program and have success, but they are.
            What you presented was a picture of a single person, which is basically a single testimony. Individual testimonies are meaningless. Without a control group for comparison, we don't know what effect the treatment had. It's possible that the person whose picture we saw experienced improved health for a reason entirely unrelated to their adoption of Esselstyn's program, and simply happened to start eating his diet at the same time. With an appropriate control group, we can measure the effect of the independent variable on the dependent variable. Without a control, we can only see the change, but we don't know what caused it.

            The picture is even less meaningful because it's only a single person's. If we saw the averaged results of a large group, then we might have an idea of the average effect this treatment has on a person. But a single person's results are basically meaningless. This guy could be an outlier. Do you hear about testimonies from people for whom this diet failed? If someone tries Esselstyn's program, and it fails them, and they die, do you hear their testimony? Or are you only hearing testimonies from people for whom it succeeded? Of all the people who try this diet, how many succeed on it? If you only look for success stories, you're getting an inherently biased picture.

            It's easy to find testimonies supporting just about any diet out there. But they don't mean much. Science is based on controlled experiments. With humans, what we want is a randomized controlled trial, not testimonies.
            My opinions and some justification

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            • #96
              Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
              50% of what I have eaten for years will, by volume, have been vegetables.
              If 50% of your plate was veggies and 50% was animal foods, by volume, then because of the low calorie density of veggies(assuming non-starchy), then it means that majority, possibly 80% of your total calories was from the animal foods you listed, esp if much of it was fat. That still makes it a meat(animal foods)-based diet. If your were to do what Gorbag suggested, where meats and animal products in general are limited to once or twice a week and fill your plate with plant foods including starches, legumes, veggies, fruits, then that will be significant shift that will likely be beneficial. Also you don't have to eat raw veggies if you don't like them. Just cook them if that's how you prefer them.

              Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
              You say "centred round meat and fat"
              I'm not trying to misrepresent what you said. I only said that because you wrote:
              Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
              I shall reduce all fat (but avoid industrially produced seed oils. Olive oil good, soy oil bad!). But not animal fats totally. Increase raw veg (I've never really liked salad etc but will add some to my food intake). Continue to avoid wheat and all gluten containing products (they flare asthma up for me anyway). Reduce dependence on meat / fish/ eggs / poultry, which may have been too great a proportion of my diet add and add yet more veg (I have way over the 5 portions per day already).
              All in all, I think you're making the right choices in reducing fat and animal foods. I've found your case interesting because from everything you've written, you were not overweight, your total cholesterol was practically within normal limits (don't know what LDL was) and on top of all that, your diet was literally perfect by primal/paleo standards, and you'd been on it for many years. The fact that you still got a heart attack is unfortunate but eye-opening for some of us who've found less than optimal results in other ways following the diet. Thanks for sharing your story and I wish you a continuing recovery.
              *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
              *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
              *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

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              • #97
                Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                This what I'm aiming for - I think I've overdone the fats, perhaps - too much cheese, cream but I have reduced them a lot. I do believe that sat fat is, however, essential to well being. And I agree totally about refined sugars, flours and polyunsaturated seed oils. They have not been a part of my diet for a long long time. Thanks for your posts.
                Just focus on natural whole foods. Fill half your grocery basket in the produce section, a quarter of it in the meat and dairy section (not milk, but eggs, aged cheeses, half and half, butter, sour cream), and almost none of it from the boxed and canned foods aisles. The only thing I routinely buy in cans is diced tomatoes, and I never ever make food out of a box mix. Eat your meats without sauces and never floured or fried in vegetable oil. Eat your vegetables cooked and seasoned but without adding sauces or flours or sugars. Use olive and coconut oils and butters when needed, not vegetable oils. Other than these simple rules, just eat food. Real food.

                You never mentioned your exercise habits I don't think, but do resistance and cardio regularly.
                Last edited by NewOldGuy; 01-06-2016, 12:05 PM.

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                • #98
                  Yesterday I had fish for dinner so today its beef! Around two pounds that has been DE-fattened by cooked in water then made into beef jerky, so very little volume and most of the calories disappeared in water or by dripping off fat, so mostly beef protein. I will eat it with cooked vegetables, beans and rice. For breakfast today I had low calorie Jell-O, salted seeds at 11 am then for lunch I ate a huge pile of mixed raw vegetables, piece of fresh white cheese and more jell-O, it really filled me up.

                  Timing of foods matters also; eating fatty food for breakfast, lunch and dinner will put a strain on the heart just to get it digested. I wonder why so many people get a heart attack around Christmas time? My guess; lots of fatty food combined with stress and physical labor…
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                    What you presented was a picture of a single person, which is basically a single testimony. Individual testimonies are meaningless. Without a control group for comparison, we don't know what effect the treatment had. It's possible that the person whose picture we saw experienced improved health for a reason entirely unrelated to their adoption of Esselstyn's program, and simply happened to start eating his diet at the same time. With an appropriate control group, we can measure the effect of the independent variable on the dependent variable. Without a control, we can only see the change, but we don't know what caused it.

                    The picture is even less meaningful because it's only a single person's. If we saw the averaged results of a large group, then we might have an idea of the average effect this treatment has on a person. But a single person's results are basically meaningless. This guy could be an outlier. Do you hear about testimonies from people for whom this diet failed? If someone tries Esselstyn's program, and it fails them, and they die, do you hear their testimony?
                    <snip>
                    The picture is from one of the 22 patients in Esselstyn's original study upon which he based his book and his diet. Yes, 22.
                    In addition to following his diet, all 22 patients took statin drugs. All patients had lifestyle counseling to reduce stress. All were nondiabetic, nonhypertensive, and nonsmokers. Participants were asked to take a daily multivitamin and to moderate their consumption of alcohol and caffeine. They received several hours of instruction in relaxation and meditation techniques through the Cleveland Clinic’s Department of Psychology. All were given Niacin supplements initially and some discontinued it due to side effects.

                    Only 11 of 22 completed the five year study. Five of the 11 who completed it, subsequently had new coronary events within 5 more years (attributed by Esselstyn to not staying on the diet). The other 6 had no events in the five years after the study. Of the 11, between them they started with 25 documented arterial lesions, and 14 of those showed improvement (diameter increased). Four lesions got worse (diameter decreased). 6 showed no change. Two of the 11 participants required invasive coronary intervention during the study.

                    http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/study01/
                    Last edited by NewOldGuy; 01-06-2016, 12:43 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NewOldGuy View Post
                      The picture is from one of the 22 patients in Esselstyn's original study upon which he based his book and his diet. Yes, 22.
                      In addition to following his diet, all 22 patients took statin drugs. All patients had lifestyle counseling to reduce stress. All were nondiabetic, nonhypertensive, and nonsmokers. Participants were asked to take a daily multivitamin and to moderate their consumption of alcohol and caffeine. They received several hours of instruction in relaxation and meditation techniques through the Cleveland Clinic’s Department of Psychology. All were given Niacin supplements initially and some discontinued it due to side effects.

                      Only 11 of 22 completed the five year study. Five of the 11 who completed it, subsequently had new coronary events within 5 more years (attributed by Esselstyn to not staying on the diet). The other 6 had no events in the five years after the study.
                      Thanks for clearing that up! Obviously, the lack of animal products was responsible for the improvement. Everything else was just irrelevant.
                      Last edited by Elliot; 01-06-2016, 12:41 PM.
                      My opinions and some justification

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                        Thanks for clearing that up! Obviously, the lack of animal products was responsible for the improvement. Everything else was just irrelevant.
                        Yep. I added a few pertinent details at the end in a late edit after your post.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by NewOldGuy View Post
                          The picture is from one of the 22 patients in Esselstyn's original study upon which he based his book and his diet. Yes, 22.
                          That was a 1985 study. They did a follow-up study on 198 patients, in response to skepticism that the plant-based approach would work in a larger group of patients.

                          Here are some snippets from the study:

                          http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

                          Methods We followed 198 consecutive patients counseled in plant-based nutrition.These patients with established cardiovascular disease (CVD) were interested in transitioning to plant-based nutrition as an adjunct to usual cardiovascular care. We considered participants adherent if they eliminated dairy, fish, and meat, and added oil.
                          Results Of the 198 patients with CVD, 177 (89%) were adherent. Major cardiac events judged to be recurrent disease totaled one stroke in the adherent cardiovascular participants—a recurrent event rate of 0.6%, significantly less than reported by other studies of plant-based nutrition therapy. Thirteen of 21 (62%) nonadherent participants experienced adverse events.
                          Getting at the root cause of CAD requires a different approach.
                          CAD begins with progressive endothelial injury, infammatory oxidative stress, diminution of nitric oxide production, foam cell formation, and development of plaques that may rupture to cause a myocardial infarction (MI) or stroke. This cascade is set in motion in part by, and is exacerbated by, the western diet of added oils, dairy, meat, fowl, fish, sugary foods (sucrose, fructose, and drinks containing those, refined carbohydrates, fruit juices, syrups, and molasses) that injures or impairs endothelial function after each ingestion, making food choices a major, if not the major, cause of CAD.
                          This study had several limitations.
                          First, it included self-selected, very determined patients. Without a control group, it is challenging to establish causality and assess how much of the observed changes are specifically due to the diet. Only some of the observed beneficial outcomes may have been due to the diet. This study was not prospectively randomized. Nevertheless, this fact does not detract from proof of concept that major cardiovascular events occurred in probably <1% (and certainly <10%) of the entire adherent cohort, compared with 62% of the nonadherent cohort (TABLE 2). These data convey a strong message of patients accepting empowerment to be the locus of control to arrest their disease and confirm that patients will adopt a significant lifestyle transition to plant-based nutrition to halt and regress what we believe is a largely food-borne illness.
                          *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
                          *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
                          *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KimLean125byMar15 View Post
                            That was a 1985 study. They did a follow-up study on 198 patients, in response to skepticism that the plant-based approach would work in a larger group of patients.
                            That one went even further in eliminating foods other than meat, yet they still speak of it as being successful due to being "plant based" with no consideration of the many other variables. The forbidden foods in the second study were:

                            - all added oils
                            - processed foods that contain oils
                            - fish, meat, fowl
                            - dairy products, avocado, nuts, and excess salt
                            - sugary foods
                            - sucrose, fructose, and drinks containing them
                            - refined carbohydrates
                            - fruit juices
                            - syrups and molasses
                            - caffeine

                            In addition to the forbidden list, the participants also took
                            - daily multivitamin
                            - B12 supplement
                            - flax meal
                            - statins and other prescribed drugs
                            - only whole grains, no flour

                            But yeah, I'm sure it was just the no meat that did the trick.



                            And had nothing to do with removing sugar, refined carbs, flour, and polyunsaturated seed oils from the diet, all of which are from plants.
                            Last edited by NewOldGuy; 01-06-2016, 03:52 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Agreed, NewOldGuy, it may very well have been refined sugars, refined flours and seed oils. In BreadSauce's case though, he's gluten sensitive, so we know he doesn't do refined flours. Maybe it was the sugars and seed oils? Wait, he already answered that before. He was responding to you in fact:

                              Originally posted by breadsauce View Post
                              This what I'm aiming for - I think I've overdone the fats, perhaps - too much cheese, cream but I have reduced them a lot. I do believe that sat fat is, however, essential to well being. And I agree totally about refined sugars, flours and polyunsaturated seed oils. They have not been a part of my diet for a long long time. Thanks for your posts.
                              That leads us back to square one, saturated animal fats.
                              *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
                              *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
                              *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by KimLean125byMar15 View Post
                                That leads us back to square one, saturated animal fats.
                                So that's the only variable left in his life?

                                It might be plausible if there were any controlled studies showing saturated fat consumption increased CAD or cardiac events or mortality. The problem is, the evidence is just the opposite. Not one study has ever shown such a causative relationship, ever, and some have shown eating meat reduces all-cause mortality and not eating it increases it. You've got to give up on the 50-year old Ancel Keys theories that were never supported even by his own "Seven Countries" study. His data actually showed that eating animal fat and animal protein was correlated with reduced all-cause mortality. A lot. It also showed that carbohydrate consumption has positive correlation with increased mortality rates. And this was Ancel Keys data, the granddaddy of the evil animal fat movement.

                                Incidentally, since you like that old theory, you may find it interesting that Keys himself concluded that dietary cholesterol was irrelevant to coronary disease. He believed it was just animal fat.
                                Last edited by NewOldGuy; 01-06-2016, 04:54 PM.

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