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  • Protein Requirement

    I know this topic has been beat to death but here is an excerpt from a piece by Dr Mercola included in the current US Wellness weekly email. First time I heard about about the cancer angle.

    "As a general rule, you'll want to limit your protein intake to 1 gram of protein per kilo of lean body fat, or about 0.5 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass. To determine your lean body mass, calculate your body fat percentage and subtract that from 100. So if you are 20 percent body fat you would have 80 percent lean body mass. Then, multiply that times your current weight to get lean body mass in kilos or pounds.

    A piece of dark turkey meat equal to the size of a deck of cards is about 3.5-4 ounces, which is an ideal portion size for most people.

    This recommendation is based on new information gleaned from Dr. Ron Rosedale, whom I recently interviewed. He is one of the first physicians in the U.S. that started measuring insulin and leptin levels clinically and was far ahead of the curve on this one. In our interview, he helped me understand the major importance that excessive protein intake can have on health, including cancer growth. (When you consume protein in levels higher than one gram of protein per kilogram of lean body mass you can activate the mTOR pathway, which will radically increase your risk of cancers.)

    Vegetarians tend to have their protein levels in line with this recommendation. This is not typically done intentionally but is a result of the lower concentration of protein in most nuts and vegetables relative to animal products. However, I still strongly believe human physiology is best optimized with some high-quality pasture raised animal protein as long as it does not exceed the limits mentioned above.

    It is very easy to consume excess protein and my guess is that most people reading this are. I know I was, and as a result of this new insight I have reduced my protein intake. Remember that pregnant women and those working out extensively need about 25 percent more protein though or 1.25 grams of protein per kilogram of lean body weight."

  • #2
    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post

    A piece of dark turkey meat equal to the size of a deck of cards is about 3.5-4 ounces, which is an ideal portion size for most people.
    This would yield about 29g of protein, right? (turkey = 29g protein per 100g or 3.5 ounces).

    That's only going to go a small distance towards most people's requirements.
    My first journal - http://forum.marksdailyapple.com/for...mal-highlights

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Annieh View Post
      This would yield about 29g of protein, right? (turkey = 29g protein per 100g or 3.5 ounces).

      That's only going to go a small distance towards most people's requirements.
      He is giving this as a suggested portion, not daily requirement. You did read his article, right? 0.5 grams per lb of lean body mass daily unless you are pregnant or working out heavily.
      Last edited by Artbuc; 11-14-2016, 02:20 AM.

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      • #4
        I just don't see how he can determine what is an "ideal portion size for most people" in the same breath as saying requirements are individual. People are different sizes, and need different amounts.

        However, it is true his recommendations seem about half what Primal Blueprint recommends. Still more than what a lot of people probably aim for though.
        My first journal - http://forum.marksdailyapple.com/for...mal-highlights

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        • #5
          I think the case for this is less is always better but there is an amount people will need and that will change given their size and activity level but they also have to factor in their stomach acid. If that's low, you simply just won't make use of more protein.

          Also if we look at it this way; if we generally don't have the enzymes and what not to break down a lot of the vegetables for their nutrients, what exact foods are people supposed to get their nutrients from? The way we get those is (assuming everything is normal) is from the animals that digest them.

          So what might the ideal diet look like then low to moderate protein, combined with dairy and fruits?

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          • #6
            I personally feel best on about double that protein. Is it too much? I don't know but I know that 1g per kg of lean mass is definitely TOO LITTLE. For me. I feel awful on that amount in the brain, muscles and nervous system. I am just one of those people that needs a lot of protein. Then again, I can subsist on very little carbs and feel just fine! Everyone's different and I don't think ANYONE, anywhere, can make blanket statements about what we all need.

            Seems to me that's how we GOT into this screwy mess of nutrition/health misinformation in the first place

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            • #7
              When you consider that those requirements are usually formulated with 20 healthy male volunteers in their mid-20's, that's a lot of leeway for the rest of us, who may be pregnant, nursing, recovering from accidents or illness, or manifest lowered digestion due to old age. ;-) I don't always take Mercola as the last word in many things, and this is one of them.

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              • #8
                That sounds like a low number. I consider neither Mercola nor Rosedale to really be authorities on health. My understanding is that Rosedale is so opposed to carbohydrates and insulin that he thinks we should all eat zero carb. I suppose if you think insulin is the Devil then it would make sense to limit protein, but I disagree with his reasoning.
                My opinions and some justification

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                • #9
                  Rosedale has always promoted this viewpoint. Mercola gets kinda hyped up over whoever his latest conversation/interview was with. If I recall there has been studies showing that a higher intake of protein prevented cancer, while higher levels of protein once cancer was present increased its growth rate. I'll have to see if I can find that again.

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                  • #10
                    Neck hammer that is an interesting study to read - a viewpoint I've never heard before.

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                    • #11
                      Any study that looks at protein quantity without considering quality is missing the point. Gelatin and muscle meat both provide protein, but have different effects.
                      My opinions and some justification

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                      • #12
                        Yeah, that's very close to the amount recommended by the WHO, which is 0.83g/kg.

                        http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/1...5_eng.pdf?ua=1

                        ......For the purpose of prescription, levels of intake that carry varying degrees of confidence that they are adequate for the random individual can be recommended. As with the previous report (2), the safe level of intake is defined on the basis of a probability of adequacy of 0.975 (i.e. adequate for all but 2.5% of individuals).

                        ........On this basis, for individuals the term safe intake level can be defined as: level of intake that is sufficient for 97.5% of the
                        population = .... (0.83 g protein/kg per day).


                        Supplying this level to an individual will ensure an acceptably low level of risk (2.5%) that their needs will not be met, and conversely a high degree of probability that they will receive more than their requirement.

                        ......As indicated in section 2, the protein requirement of adults can be defined as the minimum intake that will allow nitrogen equilibrium (zero nitrogen balance), at an appropriate body composition during energy balance and at moderate physical activity...... "
                        I read this last year and lowered my protein intake from the routinely recommended 1g/lb of lbm which for me was about 100g, to this lower WHO amount which I round off to 1g/kg of body weight, about 52g of protein. Another publication by the International Olympic Committee has their protein recs at 1.2-1.6g/kg. So taking the lower limit, that would put me at 61g, and I'm no olympian, so I figured it was rational that 1g/kg was way more than enough given my moderate activity level.

                        The folks who sell high protein diets, protein supplements etc have an incentive to entice people to believe they need double the protein they really need. That's how I got suckered into eating more meat than I needed and chugging whey protein shakes just to get to 100g.
                        Last edited by KimLean125byMar15; 11-14-2016, 04:15 PM.
                        *Starting Wt - 151 lbs (January 2015) * Current Wt - 113 lbs (November 2016)
                        *95% Plant-Based (from June 2015) ~ *75%Carbs *10-15%Protein *10-15%Fat
                        *Exercise ~7-10 hrs/week

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by primarily primal View Post
                          Neck hammer that is an interesting study to read - a viewpoint I've never heard before.
                          Pertinent to this discussion:

                          I knew I saw something linked very recently in this regard on MDA....so here it is http://www.marksdailyapple.com/shoul...-less-protein/

                          "High protein diets give you cancer.

                          Vegans love citing the T. Colin Campbell research from the China Study, which appeared to show that high intakes of protein caused increased cancer deaths. While adequate intakes of protein (from casein) promoted the growth of existing tumors in those rodents, it also protected against the mutagens that cause the initial appearance of tumors. Protein was protective against cancer until they had it, at which point it accelerated the cancer’s progression. Rodents on the low protein diet were more susceptible to getting cancer after aflatoxin exposure. Once the rodents already had cancer, low protein was protective against further growth.

                          More accurate: adequate protein protects against the initiation of cancer (and probably other maladaptive ills), but patients with cancer should limit it. That makes sense. Context is everything."


                          If you follow some of the citations you come to this article written by chris masterjohn:

                          http://www.westonaprice.org/our-blog...revent-cancer/

                          Some interesting stuff there...
                          Last edited by Neckhammer; 11-14-2016, 03:52 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                            Any study that looks at protein quantity without considering quality is missing the point. Gelatin and muscle meat both provide protein, but have different effects.
                            Absolutely correct.

                            Most common link between cancer and high protein appears related to high methionine proteins, dificient of glycine. It's the downside of eating muscle meats without eating broth and gelatin. Methionine - Glycine is another pair of things needing appropriate balance to be effective. Methionine from muscle + glycine from gelatin.
                            Stop by to visit at http://primalways.net
                            Old Paths ... New Journeys

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Pertinent to this discussion:

                              I knew I saw something linked very recently in this regard on MDA....so here it is http://www.marksdailyapple.com/shoul...-less-protein/

                              "High protein diets give you cancer.

                              Vegans love citing the T. Colin Campbell research from the China Study, which appeared to show that high intakes of protein caused increased cancer deaths. While adequate intakes of protein (from casein) promoted the growth of existing tumors in those rodents, it also protected against the mutagens that cause the initial appearance of tumors. Protein was protective against cancer until they had it, at which point it accelerated the cancer’s progression. Rodents on the low protein diet were more susceptible to getting cancer after aflatoxin exposure. Once the rodents already had cancer, low protein was protective against further growth.

                              More accurate: adequate protein protects against the initiation of cancer (and probably other maladaptive ills), but patients with cancer should limit it. That makes sense. Context is everything."


                              If you follow some of the citations you come to this article written by chris masterjohn:

                              http://www.westonaprice.org/our-blog...revent-cancer/

                              Some interesting stuff there...
                              But can we directly compare rodents to humans though?
                              Take a walk on the wild side.

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