No announcement yet.

Accelerating fat loss - carbs < 50g per day

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Nice breakdown MalPaz. That makes sense to me. I couldn't figure out how people we eating more than double the calories that I was eating, and they were losing weight. I really haven't had an interest or need to get into ketosis, so that's probably why. I have kept my carbs around 50-100g, and I like it there. So eating like that, for me to lose fat, I need to have a caloric deficit.


    • #17
      Leave out the fruit and corn. Eat a LOT more leafy greens and colorful veggies. I would say that you could the stop counting carbs. That nit picky shit drives me nuts, personally.


      • #18
        Originally posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
        Nice breakdown MalPaz. That makes sense to me. I couldn't figure out how people we eating more than double the calories that I was eating, and they were losing weight. I really haven't had an interest or need to get into ketosis, so that's probably why. I have kept my carbs around 50-100g, and I like it there. So eating like that, for me to lose fat, I need to have a caloric deficit.
        This weekend while looking at the back of a pack of bacon i noticed there was 2 calorie counts. 210cal for uncooked and 80cal for cooked. There it is plain as day, the magic of eating 4000 calories of mostly fat. Unless you are licking the pan and plate clean I don't think you are getting anywhere near the calories from fat you think you are.

        This plus Pee-tones surely would make it seem that calorie in vs calorie out is wrong. Which, I suppose, is still kind of true since how do you measure those variables?
        Don't be a paleotard...


        • #19
          Originally posted by MalPaz View Post
          i think the important thing here is 'when i started' i was eating 4000 calories... when one makes that 'switch' from ketosis to keto adapted or carb burning to ketoadapted there is a 'sparing' effect. it doesnt last forever and i doubt you would lose(without exercise factored) on 4000 calories now...

          My take on one CONVERTING to keto and the fact that it needs to be high FAT, not high protein if you want to make the fat-burning switch. I am no science expert but this is how I see it:

          The subject of fat storage is a complex one. It is true that when we eat a high carb diet, the main hormone regulating fat storage is insulin, however, when eating a high fat diet with little or no carbs then there are other mechanisms. Much of my Journal is about testing Taubs theory of "no carbs, no insulin, no fat gain". I found this to be wrong.

          First, it appears that there is a lot of fat loss because initially our bodies are conditioned to process carbs. Since there is plenty of glucose in our blood, our cells are conditioned to utilize this as their primary fuel. Metabolizing glucose is a rather simple process much like yeast and fermentation.

          For our cells to use fatty acids as the primary fuel is much more complex. Mitochondria are needed for this process. Since most of our lives we’ve had plenty of glucose available as fuel, we only have the minimum level of mitochondria in our cells and not near enough to convert fatty acids directly to fuel.

          When we stop eating carbs and start eating fats, our bodies are very inefficient in using the new fuel. Our cells are demanding glucose as they can’t use fatty acids efficiently until they create more mitochondria which takes time (often several months). The fat we eat (and the body fat we store) is in the form of triglycerides. This is three fatty acids clustered around a glycerol molecule. Glycerol can be converted to glucose, but it is very inefficient. It takes 2 glycerol molecules to make one glucose molecule. Our liver will take the triglycerides we are eating (as well as some from body fat), strip off the fatty acids and convert the glycerol to glucose as this is what our cells need until they adapt and make more mitochondria to be able to use fatty acids directly. This means that the body needs two triglycerides and is throwing away 6 fatty acids (75% of the energy) just to be able to make one molecule of glucose. And, you guess it, we start rapidly loosing weight. (the excess fatty acids are turned into ketones and eliminated through sweat, breath, and urine.) If the body is still short glucose it will use dietary protein as well as sacrifice muscle tissue to create the needed glucose through the process of gluconeogenisis. We get the impression that calories don’t count because we just can’t eat enough food to create the necessary glucose that our body wants from the fat we are eating when 75% of the energy is being thrown away because the cells can’t use it. Therefore, the body consumes body fat and some muscle tissue to make up the short fall in glucose and we lose weight.

          Over time, our bodies begin to adapt to the new fuel source. The cells add mitochondria and most of our body tissues will convert to using fatty acids and/or ketones as fuel rather than glucose. When this happens we find that the level of ketones being thrown away in the urine drop to very low levels (because our body is now using them), and weight loss slows or stops completely. Suddenly calories start to count again, and in a big way because now our bodies are using 100% of the energy contained in the fat as the cells are using the three fatty acids directly as fuel and the left over glycerol is still being converted to glucose. Body fat is no longer being used to fill in the energy gap.

          Now comes the issue of body fat storage. When we are eating fat and protein and little or no carbohydrate, fat storage is accomplished through an enzyme called ASP (Acylation Stimulating Protein). This little jewel has the ability to directly store fat in the fat cells bypassing the glucose and insulin pathways.

          On a zero carb diet(protein and fat), excess fatty acids not immediately needed for energy will be directly stored in the fat cells through ASP. This stored fat will then be called upon as the body needs energy and is mobilized out of the fat cells through Hormone Sensitive Lipase (HSL) which will only allow body fat metabolism if insulin, a hormone, is low, hence ‘hormone sensitive’.

          As long as the total fat stored is equal to the total fat consumed, body fat will not accumulate. However, if, on average, less energy is needed than was stored, not all fat stored by ASP from the ZC meals will be remobilized by HSL and body fat will rise. So eventually, calories start to count again.

          When someone first converts from a lifetime of high carb they can eat 4,000 to 5,000 calories per day and lose weight. The body cant use most of the energy so it threw it away(FOR A TIME PERIOD). The ketones in my urine were running the darkest color on the Ketostix, and breath has an acetone smell from ketones being eliminated through the breath.

          After about 18 months the body has adapted to using fatty acids rather than glucose as its primary fuel and the ketone levels dropped to Trace levels and the acetone breath went away. Once their bodies are fully adapted to using fatty acids as their primary fuel, they start to gain weight unless they reduce their calorie intake.

          Hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to ask questions and I’ll do my best to answer.

          There are a couple of issues. The primary issue seems to be whether our bodies have adapted to the food. In the case of carbs, the cellular metabolism is fermentive and all cells can use glucose without adapting, however, if the main fuel available suddenly becomes fatty acids, then the cells must create mitochondria to be able to use the fatty acids directly as fuel.
          Until sufficient mitochondria and the associated enzymes have been built up in the cells, the cell’s ability to take up the available energy from fatty acids is impaired and the results are the same as if we just didn’t eat those fatty acids in the first place as the energy from them is mostly unavailable. In other words, it appears that calories don’t count. Once the cells adapt, then either form of energy source (glucose or fatty acids) will be efficiently metabolized and generally speaking, weight will be gained or lost depending on overall energy balance.

          In a nutshell, I think this is WHY carb cycling works to benefit fat loss. It is very very hormonally related.


          You had me at 18 months. You. Had. Me. At. 18 months. That is the exact time period I notice significant changes in cut and ripped and had to alter caloric intake. Great stuff!


          • #20
            Wow! Awesome explanation MalPaz!

            Originally posted by MalPaz View Post
            In a nutshell, I think this is WHY carb cycling works to benefit fat loss. It is very very hormonally related.
            Could you explain further how carb cycling works metabolically/hormonally?


            • #21
              Hi atc, sorry to hijack your thread but I see you're in Berkshire - where do you train weightlifting?


              • #22
                Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
                Wow! Awesome explanation MalPaz!

                Could you explain further how carb cycling works metabolically/hormonally?
                haha well you gotta check out lyle's stuff for that.... this is what i know...

                To shift the body out of ketosis and toward a more anabolic state, dieters will need to begin
                consuming carbohydrates approximately 5 hours prior to the final workout. At this time, a small
                amount of carbohydrates, perhaps 25 to 50 grams, can be consumed along with some protein and unsaturated fats, to begin the upregulation of liver enzymes. The type of carbohydrate needed has not been studied and individuals are encouraged to experiment with different types and amounts of foods.
                Approximately 2 hours before the final workout, a combination of glucose and fructose
                (with optional glutamine) should be consumed, to refill liver glycogen. Once again, specific
                amounts have not been determined but 25 to 50 grams total carbohydrate would seem a good
                place to start.

                Nutrient intake

                During the first 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrate intake should be 10 grams per
                kilogram of lean body mass or 4.5 grams of carbs per pound of lean body mass . This will
                represent 70% of the total calories consumed. The remaining calories are divided evenly between
                fat (15% of total calories) and protein (15% of total calories). Table 2 gives estimated amounts of
                carbohydrate, protein and fat for various amounts of lean body mass.
                During the second 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrates will make up 60% of the total calories,
                protein 25% and fat 15% as shown in table 3.

                Summary of guidelines for glycogen supercompensation on the CKD

                1. -5 hours prior to your final workout before the carb-up, consume 25-50 grams of carbohydrate
                with some protein to begin the shift out of ketosis. Small amounts of protein and fat may be
                added to this meal.
                2. -2 hours prior to the final workout, consume 25-50 grams of glucose and fructose (such as fruit)
                to refill liver glycogen.
                3. -The level of glycogen resynthesis depends on the duration of the carb-up and the amount of
                carbohydrates consumed. In 24 hours, glycogen levels of 100-110 mmol/kg can be achieved as
                long as 10 grams carb/kg lean body mass are consumed. During the second 24 hours of carbing,
                an intake of 5 grams/kg lean body mass is recommended.
                4.- During the first 24 hours, the macronutrient ratios should be 70% carbs, 15% protein and 15%
                fat. During the second 24 hours, the ratios are roughly 60% carbs, 25% protein and 15% fat.
                5. -As long as sufficient amounts of carbohydrate are consumed, the type and timing of intake is
                relatively less important. However, some data suggests the higher glycogen levels can be
                attained over 24 hours, if higher Glycemic Index (GI) carbs are consumed. If carbing is continued
                past 24 hours, lower GI foods should be consumed.
                Assuming full depletion, which requires a variable amount of training depending on the
                length of the carb-up, glycogen levels can be refilled to normal within 24 hours, assuming that
                carbohydrate consumption is sufficient. With longer or shorter carb-loading periods, muscle
                glycogen levels can reach higher or lower levels respectively.

                During the initial 24 hours of carb-loading, a carbohydrate intake of 8-10 grams of carbs
                per kilogram of lean body mass will refill muscle glycogen to normal levels. Although less well
                researched, it appears that a carbohydrate intake of roughly 5 grams/kg lean body mass is
                appropriate. While the type of carbohydrate ingested during the first 24 hours of carb-loading is
                less critical, it is recommended that lower GI carbs be consumed during the second 24 hours to
                avoid fat regain. The addition of other nutrients to the carb-load phase does not appear to affect
                glycogen resynthesis rates. However fat intake must be limited somewhat to avoid fat gain.
                It is currently unknown how the insertion of a carb-loading phase will affect the
                adaptations to ketosis. As well, no long term data exists on the metabolic effects which are seen.
                Therefore it can not be recommended that the CKD be followed indefinitely and a more ?balanced?
                diet should be undertaken as soon as one?s goals are achieved.

                A question which is asked is whether the carb-load is anabolic, stimulating muscle growth
                while dieting. As muscle growth requires an overall anabolic metabolism, the body must be
                shifted out of ketosis (which is catabolic) during the carb-load. This requires that liver
                metabolism be shifted away from ketone production, which necessitates both an increase in
                certain enzymes as well as a refilling of liver glycogen. Therefore the carb-load really begins
                about 5 hours prior to the final workout when a small amount of carbohydrates should be
                consumed to begin upregulating liver enzymes. Approximately 2 hours prior to the workout, a
                combination of glucose and fructose should be consumed to refill liver glycogen. Glutamine is an
                optional addition that may increase liver glycogen levels.

                There are a number of ways that the carb-load might affect muscle growth. The primary
                mechanism is by increasing insulin and amino acid availability. The second is by increasing
                cellular hydration levels. Both have the potential to increase protein synthesis while decreasing
                protein breakdown.

                Ultimately the question must be asked as to just how much new muscle can be
                synthesized during a carb-up of 24 to 48 hours. Even assuming zero muscle breakdown during
                the ketogenic week, the amount of new muscle synthesized is likely to be small. So while
                individuals may gain a small amount of muscle during a CKD, it should not be expected or
                counted on.
                Get on my Level


                • #23
                  I feel as if I have read this before haha!
                  Don't be a paleotard...






                  • #24
                    the post i just did on carb cycling i got from some body building forum... where i get most my knowledge, those guys know what theyre doing
                    Get on my Level


                    • #25
                      thanks for the posts MalPaz!
                      Heather and the hounds - Make a Fast Friend, Adopt a Greyhound!


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by john_e_turner_ii View Post
                        Yes, this is a frequently debated topic. I am more on the side of calories in calories out based on my experience. I would love to be able to eat 3000 calories per day, but I would be obese if I did. I found my maintenance level of around 1900-2000 calories per day, and in order to lose weight, I have to hit about 1600-1700. That's even with half my calories being fat and only getting around 50-100g carbs per day. Everyone is different.
                        I have also read that simply restricting carbs stops working at a certain point. Thanks MalPaz for the explanation of the theory of why this is so. I've seen recommendations that you start your diet by reducing carbs but reducing calories by only about 500 or so, then slowly ramp the calories downward.
                        Apathy is tyranny's greatest ally.


                        • #27
                          Wow, great work Mal. You rock! I have nothing to add but I find sweet potatoes to be great for carb cycling.


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Daemonized View Post
                            Wow, great work Mal. You rock! I have nothing to add but I find sweet potatoes to be great for carb cycling.
                            me too as they are the only thing i can eat lots of without so much bloat...the winter squashes come with SOOOOO much water that 1/2 an acorn squash has me lying on my bed unable to get in a breath!
                            Get on my Level


                            • #29
                              daemonized can you explain this to me???

                              with a keto based carb cycle diet, insulin's role will be prioritized to filling muscular glycogen stores before the chance for adipose tissue to respond arises...I'll just have to be careful to stick to omega 3 and 6 fats on carbups since they are extremely difficult to store as fat even in a high insulin environment
                              Get on my Level


                              • #30
                                this is pretty interesting too

                                btw: here is something from Di Pascales book on Amino Acids (I mentioned that before)
                                As mentioned above in the discussion on insulin, we have seen that one of insulin’s actions is to
                                increase microvascular (nutritive) perfusion of muscle, which is enhanced by exercise.66,67 This
                                enhancement is crucial to maximize the anabolic effects of exercise and targeted nutrition.
                                For example, a recent review looked at the effects of insulin on the vascular system and on
                                nutrient delivery to muscle.68 The paper points out the fact that there are two flow routes in muscle:
                                one in intimate contact with the muscle cells (myocytes) and able to exchange nutrients and
                                hormones freely and thus regarded as nutritive, and a second with essentially no contact with
                                myocytes and regarded as nonnutritive (felt to provide blood to muscle connective tissue and
                                adjacent fat cells, but not muscle cells).
                                The point here is that in the absence of increases in bulk flow to muscle, say after a training
                                session, insulin may act to switch flow from nonnutritive to the nutritive route. This capillary
                                recruitment results in an increase in nutritive blood flow so that muscles that have been stressed and
                                are undergoing an adaptive response will have what they need to recover and grow.
                                This information is another piece of the anabolic puzzle. Putting it all together can give us ways
                                to dramatically improve body composition—increase muscle mass and decrease body fat. In my
                                view, the best way to do this is to figure out ways to increase the potent anabolic effects of insulin,
                                both on nutritive delivery to the muscle cells and into the muscle cells, while at the same time
                                minimizing the undesirable effects on body fat.
                                One of these ways is to increase insulin in a pulsed manner along with an increase in amino acid
                                availability, but minimal carbohydrates, at the times when the body is primed for growth and repair,
                                for example, in that window of opportunity that exists for several hours after training. It would also
                                be desirable to increase GH and IGF-I levels at the same time as insulin, in order to further enhance
                                the anabolic effects of insulin and decrease, and actually reverse, the undesirable effects of insulin
                                on fat metabolism.
                                The bottom line is that the key to maximizing body composition, and to increase performance in
                                fat-adapted athletes is to keep carbohydrates low and energy and protein intake high for several
                                hours or even more after exercise.
                                There are also reasons for fat-adapted athletes to keep carbohydrate levels low before and during
                                exercise, as we have already seen.
                                Get on my Level