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  • Want to go full Carnivore?

    Ive been about 95% carnivore for about 6 weeks. Really digging it. A major difference between this WOE and my very keto like primal WOE i followed for about 2 years a while back is the almost total lack of veggies. Without those veggies with butter/olive oil taking up space I can eat significantly more meat. I feel great doing either, but the utter lack of appetite when in deep ketosis had me losing more weight than I wanted (that was 4-5 years ago btw). I haven't noticed a huge hit to my appetite eating this way though. I can put down about 2-3lbs of meat many days. Something to note is that gluconeogenesis is demand driven, far more so than supply driven, however with extra stores of protein that supplies doesn't run low. And I've always responded well to high protein when it comes to gym performance, so I'm not surprised to see that I've busted a few plateaus these past few weeks. Couple of places to read up about it if you like:


    http://www.biohackerslab.com/ep19-dr-shawn-baker/ This guy is simply a beast. Huge dude though, so you might not require the 5lbs of ribeye he eats each day

    He set up an interesting crowd study here https://nequalsmany.com/. Looking forward to seeing some of the data from these people who commit to a 90 just meat and water protocol.

    A classic presentation by Barry Groves https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qn5zdWucv6I

    Some good stuff here as well. https://vimeo.com/52606062

    Ive worked with enough people through elimination diets to see that the "plants" portion of eating plants and animals is almost always the major problem. Yes, it's usually grains, but invariably you have some with nightshade sensitivities and others reactive to oxalates ect...

    If I had to rate foods as fit for human consumption first and formost would be "animal derived" followed by fruit, then perhaps tubers. After that vegetables would fit in as a way to flavor the above....more as a condiment if you will.

    What do you think?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post

    Ive worked with enough people through elimination diets to see that the "plants" portion of eating plants and animals is almost always the major problem. Yes, it's usually grains, but invariably you have some with nightshade sensitivities and others reactive to oxalates ect...

    If I had to rate foods as fit for human consumption first and formost would be "animal derived" followed by fruit, then perhaps tubers. After that vegetables would fit in as a way to flavor the above....more as a condiment if you will.

    What do you think?
    I won't go into the carnivore thing... BTDT, got the T... That was 10 years ago BTW.

    But yes on the rating. For the same reasons you mentioned. However, I love all kinds of veggies and never found any problems with them personally. As much as I could live on meat alone taste wise, especially stews and grilled meats, I prefer to have colourful meals most of the time, with a variety of fruits/veggies, dictated by season.
    "Don't sweat the small stuff and relax about the whole process"

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    • #3
      Neck, are you concerned about getting enough fiber and/or increased risk of colorectal cancer?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
        Neck, are you concerned about getting enough fiber and/or increased risk of colon cancer?
        Honestly, the gut biome impact was one of my biggest concerns. When I continue to evaluate it though it seems that anything which improves or sustains a normal postprandial glucose response also aids in gut healing. We have seen seasonal changes in gut biome makeup, and quick changes associated with altering diet. I'm of the mind that the gut biome is much like our response to how much carbohydrate is in our diet...it should be flexible and quickly able to adapt in a healthy condition. This includes low fiber and the switch to high fiber. The quality of the biome should be good (in respect to chosen diet) in both states and perhaps just the quantity and types may shift. We really are still scratching the surface on mapping all this stuff so I don't have any hard answer here, just a theoretical framework that coincides with metabolic health....and this framework seems to be on the right track.

        http://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(15)01481-6.pdf

        As to colorectal cancer I have read that heavy red meat consumption may be associated with as high as a 20% increased risk. In terms of absolute risk this isn't a huge amount, but it's certainly something to watch. I know the worst of the results are associated with highly processed meats. Many believe preparation to be a big factor. You can reduce risks with preparation. Marinating in an acidic environment, cooking at lower heats, cooking in stable fats (I.e. Not veggie oil!), eating rare to medium instead of well done.....and of course not slathering it in sugary sauces and "carmelizing".
        Personally I eat most meat rare to medium and when I BBQ I use a simple SPG rub with a coating of mustard (acidic) cooked low and slow....if I sauce I always use it after I pull from the grill....but I rarely sauce. I don't eat garbage meat. And I eat a variety. This week I've had lamb, goat, pork, beef, eggs, and I still include cheese/yogurt/butter.

        Thats for me, and the question was really just for this board. I still recommend a general primal approach to the average joe.


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        • #5
          Georgia Ede's website has lots of good info about this approach: http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/

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          • #6
            Originally posted by liza View Post
            Georgia Ede's website has lots of good info about this approach: http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/
            Yup. One of the vids I originally posted is a talk by her at an ancestral health symposium.

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            • #7
              Was trying to find more on the colorectal cancer stuff and ran across this gem from several years back.

              http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.c...olesterol.html

              hmmm... and his as well

              https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ubmed_RVDocSum
              Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-29-2017, 10:53 AM.

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              • #8
                Well, it's certainly been done before, nothing new under the sun. I'm surprised the phrase "zero carbs" hasn't entered the discussion.

                I was intrigued by it some years ago, would follow the hyper moderated zeroinginonhealth.com blog. As bad as vegan blogs, one had to be approved by Mr. Washington, the owner. I think he's mostly of FB now.

                The longest running zero carber I'm aware of is a guy that worked behind the scenes with the Grateful Dead, IIRC. He went by Bear. He was killed in a car crash in his mid-late life (again, IIRC), had a health incident or two. Hmmmm.....need to relook this up.

                What I've learned about meat eating since those early days of mine now has more to do with the methionone load. When animals have been fed methionone restricted diets, they lived longer. In fact, to the same level that calories restriction gives, w/o the downsides. Further research has showed it is the methionone/glycine amino acid ratio that matters. If you ramp the glycine, you can tolerate the methionone better.

                That's why I have a bag of glycine to sprinkle on meat. In fact, in a salt shaker.

                My own version of orthorexia!

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                • #9
                  ^ Yup to just about all that. The bear was their sound man I think. He died at 76 in a car accident, but had been pure carnivore since his early 20's. Found this site about him.

                  https://zerocarbzen.com/the-bear/

                  I doubt it will be a lifelong thing. I vary my macros every season or so, but I do think I will stick with this through the winter. Certainly feeling strong and healthy with it. I still have me a couple pints of beer on the weekend though

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                  • #10
                    This is something I'll try soon. I've run the gamut from keto to vegan, and will attempt this for completeness' sake, if nothing else. Especially since I feel pretty damn good on keto, and this is a natural progression.

                    Can someone clarify the protein intake and ketosis thing? I've read that eating too much protein (IIRC around 2 g/lb of body weight) will bring you out of ketosis, but on the other hand, like Neckhammer said, I've also read that gluconeogenesis is more demand-driven. I would assume that whether you're keto on 10% protein or "carnivorous" on 30% protein, your body's demands would be the same, which caps gluconeogenesis at a certain level and keeps you in ketosis. In any case, 2 g/lb of protein is really high and I couldn't achieve that consistently on a whole foods diet.

                    Actually, I'm just not clear on how protein is metabolized, once the basic tissue repair work is done. Fat and carbs are pretty easy (they're either used immediately or converted to fat), but with excess protein, I have no idea. Is it broken down to glucose and stored as glycogen in the muscle? Excreted in the feces?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OnTheBayou View Post

                      ...That's why I have a bag of glycine to sprinkle on meat. In fact, in a salt shaker.

                      My own version of orthorexia!
                      Is gelatin a good source of glycine?
                      Take a walk on the wild side.

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                      • #12


                        Originally posted by Nightly Orange View Post
                        This is something I'll try soon. I've run the gamut from keto to vegan, and will attempt this for completeness' sake, if nothing else. Especially since I feel pretty damn good on keto, and this is a natural progression.

                        Can someone clarify the protein intake and ketosis thing? I've read that eating too much protein (IIRC around 2 g/lb of body weight) will bring you out of ketosis, but on the other hand, like Neckhammer said, I've also read that gluconeogenesis is more demand-driven. I would assume that whether you're keto on 10% protein or "carnivorous" on 30% protein, your body's demands would be the same, which caps gluconeogenesis at a certain level and keeps you in ketosis. In any case, 2 g/lb of protein is really high and I couldn't achieve that consistently on a whole foods diet.

                        Actually, I'm just not clear on how protein is metabolized, once the basic tissue repair work is done. Fat and carbs are pretty easy (they're either used immediately or converted to fat), but with excess protein, I have no idea. Is it broken down to glucose and stored as glycogen in the muscle? Excreted in the feces?
                        Gonna link you to a site that is really great for these sort of questions about metabolism:

                        https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.o...lism.php#intro

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                        • #13
                          I tend to agree with Neckhammer on this one, mainly because it comes down human physiology, and the fact that humans aren't Ruminants. A Ruminant is an animal has a special compartment in their stomach specifically meant for fermenting down plant foods. Humans don't have this. These animals essentially ferment fiber down into short chain fatty acids and further extract the full nutrient profile from plant foods. That means these animal's energy source is ultimately being derived from fat, not carbs/glucose/plants.

                          What does that mean for us? Well we clearly aren't designed to eat plants, we need to derive our fat from elsewhere, and that is the animal itself. Obviously most us still do eat plants, and will continue to do so. The way I look at it; they need to be a small portion of the diet, and a small portion of each meal, not heaping on the plate. Basically think about it like a block of nutrients. An animal eats this block, ferments the block down and pulls the nutrients out and creates some short chain fatty acids. A human eats this block, the block will simply run through the digestive track and out the other end. It's not like one needs fiber, fat plays a similar role by keeping things moving. Where people are getting backed up is when they start sticking to lean non-fatty proteins like chicken breast, turkey, tuna, and the like.

                          Some people also just like to simply have variety and a little color on their plate, nothing wrong with that. Those with gallbladder issues (or no gallbladder at all), will likely find an all meat diet nearly impossible due to the difficulty of breaking down fats.

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                          • #14
                            I read up on Bear first. Despite his bragging, his throat cancer and radiation damage thwarts his claim of superior health and lack of aging. At 71, he was definitely showing his age . Heck, he looked older than I do now at several years older. But I got turned onto the meat and fat eaters website zerocarbzen.com. Very interesting. I might try a week or two of meat and fat , but eat pork more than beef. Beef, however, was overwhelmingly preferred by the respondents. Both price and vague allergy symptoms may curtail my beef intake, and there's always the prospect of lurking parasites /disease that sway me against raw meat. But as I said, very interesting.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WestCoastFire View Post
                              Well we clearly aren't designed to eat plants,
                              Huh, what? Plants are definitely part of the human dietary repertoire. We have multiple genes for salivary amylase. Grain residues have been found on paleolithic tools and teeth. Not being a ruminant (true) and minimizing all plant foods (a questionable practice) are not logically connected. There are many, many plant foods that can be digested just fine without having four stomachs. Previous species in the Homo lineage ate mostly plants. HS brought more protein-rich foods into the diet without eliminating all plants.

                              FYI, we weren't "designed." We evolved through natural selection.
                              I moved to primalforums.com to escape the spam.

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