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  • #76
    Originally posted by lssanjose View Post
    Common, but is it universal? I mean, does low carb SPECIFICALLY increase BG, as in, it's the trigger/catalyst; and no other factor - bar none?

    Again, I think it's necessary to have a distinction among the carb family, as carbs can come in many forms, just like protein can come from other forms. Although, some forms are more optimal sources than others.
    That depends on what one's BG level was before going low carb.

    If BG was in the healthy range, then chronic low carb will tend to make muscles less insulin sensitive as glucose is prioritised for the brain, and BG will rise.

    The optimum seems to be moderate carbs (mostly starch) with plenty of low-level cardio and strength/lifting, as this keeps the muscles insulin sensitive. If insulin is not spiked with a high glucose meal every now again, then the body gets out of practice, and lazy, with regard to handling glucose. BG regulation is just like any homeostatic mechanism in the body - it needs a challenge every now and again to remain fully operational. If you don't use it, you lose it.
    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
      That depends on what one's BG level was before going low carb.

      If BG was in the healthy range, then chronic low carb will tend to make muscles less insulin sensitive as glucose is prioritised for the brain, and BG will rise.

      The optimum seems to be moderate carbs (mostly starch) with plenty of low-level cardio and strength/lifting, as this keeps the muscles insulin sensitive. If insulin is not spiked with a high glucose meal every now again, then the body gets out of practice, and lazy, with regard to handling glucose. BG regulation is just like any homeostatic mechanism in the body - it needs a challenge every now and again to remain fully operational. If you don't use it, you lose it.
      +1

      If you look around the paleo sphere, you see a lot of LCers with BG of 90-100+ and non LC paleos with BG of 70-80.

      The LC->HBG pops up moderately often, but only with people who have been strict LC paleo for a while, which is why you don't see it around here as much, as this is mostly a site for newbies.
      Lifting Journal

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      • #78
        I'll take 3 heaping bowls of white rice a day and you take a Snickers bar and a bag of Lays. Let's see who healthier after a year.

        Hell, even if I ate enough rice to match the calories of the snack foods I'd be healthier. People too often confuse 'weight loss' with 'improving health' with the Primal diet. While it is true eating massive amounts of starchy carbs daily via white rice and sweet potatoes will not help you lose weight (at least without significant physical activity), the rice also doesn't have the sugar, rancid oils, etc. as the SAD snacks. I consider it a neutral food from the 'improving health' perspective.

        I really think people need to separate out these two ideals when discussing Primal diets - there may be common themes but they are two different goals and can require slightly different tools to get there.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
          That depends on what one's BG level was before going low carb.

          If BG was in the healthy range, then chronic low carb will tend to make muscles less insulin sensitive as glucose is prioritised for the brain, and BG will rise.

          The optimum seems to be moderate carbs (mostly starch) with plenty of low-level cardio and strength/lifting, as this keeps the muscles insulin sensitive. If insulin is not spiked with a high glucose meal every now again, then the body gets out of practice, and lazy, with regard to handling glucose. BG regulation is just like any homeostatic mechanism in the body - it needs a challenge every now and again to remain fully operational. If you don't use it, you lose it.
          I appreciate the logical explanation. But, have their been "studies" explaining this? Thanks.

          I think that's why Mark included in the fine print of his curve, VLC not to be a long term solution ; and thus labeled a maintenance phase, the way he did
          Last edited by lssanjose; 04-07-2012, 08:21 AM.
          If you have a problem with what you read: 1. Get a dictionary 2. Don't read it 3. Grow up 4. After 3, go back to 1/ or 2. -- Dennis Blue. | "I don't care about your opinion, only your analysis"- Professor Calabrese. | "Life is more important than _______" - Drew | I eat animals that eat vegetables -- Matt Millen, former NFL Linebacker. | "This country is built on sugar & shit that comes in a box marinated in gluten - abc123

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          • #80
            Originally posted by lssanjose View Post
            I appreciate the logical explanation. But, have their been "studies" explaining this? Thanks.

            I think that's why Mark included in the fine print of his curve, VLC not to be a long term solution ; and thus labeled a maintenance phase, the way he did
            I've read studies showing that exercise is very effective for preventing insulin resistance. I'll try to find some good examples and post them later. However, I've not read any scientific studies showing that VLC causes insulin resistance long term. I will do some research and see what I can find.

            I based my explanation on general biological principles to explain my observation of various posters here eating low carb long term who've reported high blood glucose, and other problems such as lowered BMR.

            I agree with you about Mark's intention about VLC not being a long-term solution.

            I believe that some people can do well on low carb long-term. My observation is that women of child-bearing age are least suited to low carb, and I've seen other posters comment to that effect.

            I plan to get my blood glucose measured in a health check-up in the next few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if my blood glucose has gone up due to eating low net carb (that's factoring in glycogen burned during workouts). I've been going into keto several afternoons a week. My blood glucose was about 54 last time it was measured, about a year ago, shortly before I adopted a paleo diet, and I'd eaten a 100 g 65% cacao chocolate bar about 2 hours beforehand, in order to challenge my body.

            I think it's important to note associated consequences on insulin sensitivity from eating low carb. A common side-effect is low magnesium and low electrolytes from limiting fruit, vegetables and starchy tubers. This is also exacerbated by avoidance of dairy. Magnesium deficiency causes insulin resistance as it plays a key role in carbohydrate metabolism.
            F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
              +1

              If you look around the paleo sphere, you see a lot of LCers with BG of 90-100+ and non LC paleos with BG of 70-80.

              The LC->HBG pops up moderately often, but only with people who have been strict LC paleo for a while, which is why you don't see it around here as much, as this is mostly a site for newbies.
              Thanks. I'm paying attention to the veterans like you, who've seen long-term success with paleo/primal, that's for sure. For every one of you there are probably about 100 newbies who soon give up because low carb doesn't work for them.
              F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Fiverz View Post
                I'll take 3 heaping bowls of white rice a day and you take a Snickers bar and a bag of Lays. Let's see who healthier after a year.

                Hell, even if I ate enough rice to match the calories of the snack foods I'd be healthier. People too often confuse 'weight loss' with 'improving health' with the Primal diet. While it is true eating massive amounts of starchy carbs daily via white rice and sweet potatoes will not help you lose weight (at least without significant physical activity), the rice also doesn't have the sugar, rancid oils, etc. as the SAD snacks. I consider it a neutral food from the 'improving health' perspective.

                I really think people need to separate out these two ideals when discussing Primal diets - there may be common themes but they are two different goals and can require slightly different tools to get there.
                +1.

                100 grams white rice, short-grain, raw provides:
                358 calories - 79 grams of starch, and 6 grams of protein.
                23% daily RDA of iron (as it's non-haem, the body will only absorb up to about a third of this depending on its needs)
                21% daily RDA of niacin
                38% daily RDA of thiamin
                58% daily RDA of folate
                13% daily RDA of pantothenic acid
                10% daily RDA of copper
                52% daily RDA of manganese
                22% daily RDA of selenium

                Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Rice, white, short-grain, raw

                I'm only listing micronutrients at 10% RDA and above.

                Hence, white rice is not empty calories. Coconut oil, with all its benefits, is totally devoid of micronutrients. That's certainly empty calories when consumed in excess of daily medium-chain fatty acid requirements.

                Butter and olive oil also have fewer micronutrients per calorie than white rice.

                That said, white rice is not nutrient dense, so I wouldn't recommend it in quantity for anyone consuming much less than their recommended daily calorie intake for maintenance, i.e. someone on a low-calorie diet, especially if they are not very active. Sweet potatoes and white potatoes are more appropriate, nutrient-dense sources of safe starch (provided no deadly nightshade intolerance in the case of white potatoes).
                F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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                • #83
                  I'll use Mark as my canary. When he keels over, I'll figure I've got twenty more years to go, and think about changing then.
                  I would ask: are you feeling GOOD now? Healthy? Are you able to do all the things you wish? Were you before? Continue with what makes you feel good, until and if, it doesn't.

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                  • #84
                    For lssanjose:

                    Low carb diets:
                    Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets
                    I lack the will to investigate further, I'm afraid, as I'm not convinced of any long-term health benefits, and doubt there are any conclusive studies out there yet.

                    Insulin sensitivity and exercise:
                    Exercise and insulin sensitivity: a review. [Int J Sports Med. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI
                    Influence of exercise on insulin sensitivity. [J Cardiovasc Risk. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI
                    Exercise-induced increase in muscle insulin sensitivity

                    The wikipedia article on insulin resistance is pretty good (though I disagree that saturated fat is a contributing factor when everything else is good).
                    Insulin resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                    Last edited by paleo-bunny; 04-07-2012, 12:28 PM. Reason: clarification
                    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by ASC View Post
                      Getting back to the original point of this post. Does anyone know of any data regarding the long-term effects of a primal diet?
                      I don't know of any and I don't care for three reasons:
                      1)Removing poisons and processed foods can only be good
                      2)I know how eating primal makes me feel
                      3)I can see the long-term effects of the SAD diet all around me.
                      Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                      PS
                      Don't forget to play!

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                        I don't know of any and I don't care for three reasons:
                        1)Removing poisons and processed foods can only be good
                        2)I know how eating primal makes me feel
                        3)I can see the long-term effects of the SAD diet all around me.
                        I think most of us are agreed on that. The most hotly debated issue is whether low carb has any role to play in terms of long-term health.
                        F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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                        • #87
                          ^^ I agree but primal isn't really about low carb. A lot of people here focus on that to loose weight but it is not the focus of primal eating.
                          Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                          PS
                          Don't forget to play!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                            ^^ I agree but primal isn't really about low carb. A lot of people here focus on that to loose weight but it is not the focus of primal eating.
                            Totally agree with that
                            F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Dirlot View Post
                              ^^ I agree but primal isn't really about low carb. A lot of people here focus on that to loose weight but it is not the focus of primal eating.
                              This...
                              Primal =/= low carb.

                              Sure, it is probably going to be lower carb than SAD no matter how hard you try... but I think that is completely besides the point.
                              Eating healthy whole foods isn't going to shorten peoples lives.
                              “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
                              ~Friedrich Nietzsche
                              And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by cori93437 View Post
                                This...
                                Primal =/= low carb.

                                Sure, it is probably going to be lower carb than SAD no matter how hard you try... but I think that is completely besides the point.
                                Eating healthy whole foods isn't going to shorten peoples lives.
                                Agreed. Healthy whole foods are key, for micronutrients, which confer vitality.
                                F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

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