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  • #31
    Originally posted by Artbuc View Post
    .....I cringe when people come on this forum seeking advice about their lipid numbers and people respond "Don't worry, your numbers are great. Your doctor does not know anything. The only thing that counts is LDL-P. Or, the only thing that matters is the ratio of HDL/Trig. Or, don't worry because the increase in LDL is the large fluffy kind which is not a problem". The fact is we do not really understand the fundamental mechanism of plaque deposition and, more importantly, we do not know what causes plaque to rupture. Making it even more complicated, I suspect the mechanisms are very different for different people and, as previously mentioned, genetics probably trumps everything....
    Sorry to cut off the rest of your post. I have no comment on your personal experience. As to this though I think its important to point out that the people that are saying the things above are the ones who tend to keep up with the research in this area as a product of having been there, or having a loved one in such a position to worry about it. For me, I've simply relegated cholesterol to useless number. IMO its not even worth testing. It serves as a poor proxy for predicting much of anything except at the very extreme ranges. Well it may be useful with other tests to monitor for metabolic syndrome, but that is a bit of a different reason to check it than what the average joe thinks its good for. I mean just look here Diagnostic Laboratory Testing for Wellness & Preventive Medicine - Genova Diagnostics . There is a comprehensive panel for ya....notice all the inflammatory markers for the cardio workup. Put that together with some plaque scans and thats about as much as you can do if you really want to monitor this.

    I think you might be off on the idea that we have "no idea" on the things you mention in regards to plaque build up and rupture. We do know that inflammation is a big contributor. We have several theories. Dr. Cordain has put forth some very interesting ideas on cap rupture as well if you care to look that up. Biology really is a soft science. If you want hard answers without debate then you need to study math.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Biology really is a soft science. If you want hard answers without debate then you need to study math.
      Agree completely. I am not looking for hard answers as I know they do not exist. Rational debate is welcome. I was objecting to the majority of posters here who make assertions dogmatically and rebut with ad hominem attacks.

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      • #33
        The problem with vegans, their gurus and their willing accomplices in the media and science is that they DON'T want to look at the science. They start out with a premise, then look for studies, philosophies and guys who speak in three syllable words to buttress their sophism. Most Paleo\Primal folks came to this decision after studying the science, anecdotal evidence and just plain using common sense. Are we really still arguing about a study done by a guy in the black and white TV era, when his contemporaries were promoting cigarettes and a martini cocktail after work. Really???? Who cares if Ancel Keys was some devious mastermind or some dork in labcoat honestly trying his best.

        Being in my 40's I have learned that just because someone sincere does not equal they are correct, you can be sincerely wrong as Keys was wrong..not even debatable at this point. Any militant vegan(I call them straight up fascists) wanted to argue the world is flat I dismiss as some 60's moonbat or hipster in a summer stocking cap and an infinity scarf. See folks, vegans\vegetarians are not the live and let live types, never where. To get political they hate your lifestyle, hate your freedom to experiment with your body, to challenge convention. Their agenda, to have some state planned neo agrarian economy based on growing food they think acceptable and then rationing it to people who think and act correctly.

        Besides the freak exception do you find any really masculine men in vegetarianism? Most of their foods are so estrogenic they cause a cascade of hormone maladies in men, including lowered testosterone, heart disease, etc. But what does making men less manly do for vegetarians, it makes the masculine force in civilization ineffectual, pliant and easy to control. I won't even date a vegetarian, most of them are nutters with bad hair, skin and are built like an Auschwitz survivor. Love that we are pissing them off. I went to my local natural food store and the gal working the counter questioned why I was getting lots of KellyGold, some HTP-5 and some chia seeds. I told her I was doing Paleo and her and the other checkout girl, some freak with a gauges in her ears and tattoos on her face looked at me with such contempt..."Oh that's the whole eat meat all the time, that caveman thing, never had any luck with that". Yea right honey.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by lwg8tr0514 View Post
          The problem with vegans, their gurus and their willing accomplices in the media and science is that they DON'T want to look at the science. They start out with a premise, then look for studies, philosophies and guys who speak in three syllable words to buttress their sophism. Most Paleo\Primal folks came to this decision after studying the science, anecdotal evidence and just plain using common sense. Are we really still arguing about a study done by a guy in the black and white TV era, when his contemporaries were promoting cigarettes and a martini cocktail after work. Really???? Who cares if Ancel Keys was some devious mastermind or some dork in labcoat honestly trying his best.

          Being in my 40's I have learned that just because someone sincere does not equal they are correct, you can be sincerely wrong as Keys was wrong..not even debatable at this point. Any militant vegan(I call them straight up fascists) wanted to argue the world is flat I dismiss as some 60's moonbat or hipster in a summer stocking cap and an infinity scarf. See folks, vegans\vegetarians are not the live and let live types, never where. To get political they hate your lifestyle, hate your freedom to experiment with your body, to challenge convention. Their agenda, to have some state planned neo agrarian economy based on growing food they think acceptable and then rationing it to people who think and act correctly.

          Besides the freak exception do you find any really masculine men in vegetarianism? Most of their foods are so estrogenic they cause a cascade of hormone maladies in men, including lowered testosterone, heart disease, etc. But what does making men less manly do for vegetarians, it makes the masculine force in civilization ineffectual, pliant and easy to control. I won't even date a vegetarian, most of them are nutters with bad hair, skin and are built like an Auschwitz survivor. Love that we are pissing them off. I went to my local natural food store and the gal working the counter questioned why I was getting lots of KellyGold, some HTP-5 and some chia seeds. I told her I was doing Paleo and her and the other checkout girl, some freak with a gauges in her ears and tattoos on her face looked at me with such contempt..."Oh that's the whole eat meat all the time, that caveman thing, never had any luck with that". Yea right honey.
          Case in point.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lwg8tr0514 View Post
            The problem with vegans, their gurus and their willing accomplices in the media and science is that they DON'T want to look at the science. They start out with a premise, then look for studies, philosophies and guys who speak in three syllable words to buttress their sophism. Most Paleo\Primal folks came to this decision after studying the science, anecdotal evidence and just plain using common sense. Are we really still arguing about a study done by a guy in the black and white TV era, when his contemporaries were promoting cigarettes and a martini cocktail after work. Really???? Who cares if Ancel Keys was some devious mastermind or some dork in labcoat honestly trying his best.

            Being in my 40's I have learned that just because someone sincere does not equal they are correct, you can be sincerely wrong as Keys was wrong..not even debatable at this point. Any militant vegan(I call them straight up fascists) wanted to argue the world is flat I dismiss as some 60's moonbat or hipster in a summer stocking cap and an infinity scarf. See folks, vegans\vegetarians are not the live and let live types, never where. To get political they hate your lifestyle, hate your freedom to experiment with your body, to challenge convention. Their agenda, to have some state planned neo agrarian economy based on growing food they think acceptable and then rationing it to people who think and act correctly.

            Besides the freak exception do you find any really masculine men in vegetarianism? Most of their foods are so estrogenic they cause a cascade of hormone maladies in men, including lowered testosterone, heart disease, etc. But what does making men less manly do for vegetarians, it makes the masculine force in civilization ineffectual, pliant and easy to control. I won't even date a vegetarian, most of them are nutters with bad hair, skin and are built like an Auschwitz survivor. Love that we are pissing them off. I went to my local natural food store and the gal working the counter questioned why I was getting lots of KellyGold, some HTP-5 and some chia seeds. I told her I was doing Paleo and her and the other checkout girl, some freak with a gauges in her ears and tattoos on her face looked at me with such contempt..."Oh that's the whole eat meat all the time, that caveman thing, never had any luck with that". Yea right honey.
            Do we have to turn this into a left/right, Ayn Rand soapbox thing? I agree that there are plenty of militant vegans but I think most of that is because they are against the killing of animals, not because they fall into some Stalinist mindset as a result of veganism or vice versa. I am quite liberal, quite to the left politically and love my meat. Thanks.

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            • #36
              I have listened to all of the plantpositive videos and I think they are well worth a look, for anyone here, who regards themselves as genuinely open minded to evidenced based nutrition. I am not a Vegan and don't expect ever to be but I'm incredibly grateful to this guy for the enormous effort that he must have put in to this project. There is some extremely interesting stuff there and it is all backed up by references from quality peer reviewed journals. Seriously, even if you disagree, some of it is fascinating (to a nutrition geek

              It is a shame that in a couple of them he is quite aggressively anti-paleo (although I think it is anti paleo marketing, hype and cult-of-personality really, so I wouldn't let it put you off). As we know most paleo people are just ordinary guys, trying to take control of their health through diet/exercise and in most cases succeeding. I think his anonymity is also an attempt to let the material stand on it's own and avoid any accusation of a personality driven web-site. There is no advertising on his site either and nothing for sale (which special interest groups benefit from you turning Vegan anyway ?).

              Of particular interest to people here is probably his dismantling of Taube's 'Good Calories, Bad Calories', the videos have 'The Journalist Gary Taubes' in the title.

              Of particular *importance* may be the Cholesterol videos. By all means make up your own minds on diet-heart, but I think you're doing yourself an injustice if you do so without hearing an eloquent and well researched argument supporting the lipid hypothesis.

              For those who don't like his voice! there is a full transcript of every video on his website: plantpositive - PlantPositive.com - A Fresh Look at the Paleo Diet

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              • #37
                I'll ask again, what is the point? That we should completely avoid meat?

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                • #38
                  I really hesitate to try and boil down plantpositives work into a few sentences because there is a *huge* amount of stuff there. From my recollection though his overall thesis would be along the lines of:
                  • There is no such thing as the perfect human diet.
                  • However the closest approximation would be a vegan diet (with Vitamin B12 supplementation).
                  • This conclusion is arrived at by looking at the latest nutrition science, rather than approaching diet from an evolutionary perspective (which would be an example of the 'appeal to nature' fallacy).
                  • Apologies to the man himself if I have misrepresented him (I'm bound to have oversimplified).



                  For me along the way he:
                  • Completely discredits Taubes, Colpo, Minger, Lustig, Eenfeld, Enig/Fallon, Moore, Dayspring et al (as previously stated often using the studies they themselves have cited). To the extent that I'm now *incredibly* sceptical of that crowd.
                  • Gives an interesting perspective on the causes of insulin resistance.
                  • Revisits the Eskimo/Massai/Native American/Native Australian populations regarding diet/disease.
                  • Shows evidence that the low cholesterol cited by Cordain of hunter gather populations is probably due to parasitic infection.
                  • Backs up the lipid hypothesis (i.e. saturated fat and ldl are not good) with a huge amount of evidence.
                  • Looks at the evidence supporting the 'large fluffy'/pattern a/b ldl arguments.
                  • Examines Ketosis.


                  etc. etc.

                  There is loads more but I hope that gives you a flavour.

                  The reason they are in a video format is that he shows highlighted scans from each of the papers referenced showing how the key points are supported.

                  As I said before, I'm not a Vegan myself. However coming from a family with a history of heart disease, I've always thought that, for me, completely disregarding the standard advice on Sat Fat/Serum Cholesterol is a bit too much of a gamble at this point. I find his evidence quite compelling. You, of course, may not!
                  Last edited by zombiewoof; 01-30-2014, 03:04 PM. Reason: formatting

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by zombiewoof View Post
                    I really hesitate to try and boil down plantpositives work into a few sentences because there is a *huge* amount of stuff there. From my recollection though his overall thesis would be along the lines of:
                    • There is no such thing as the perfect human diet.
                    • However the closest approximation would be a vegan diet (with Vitamin B12 supplementation).
                    • This conclusion is arrived at by looking at the latest nutrition science, rather than approaching diet from an evolutionary perspective (which would be an example of the 'appeal to nature' fallacy).
                    • Apologies to the man himself if I have misrepresented him (I'm bound to have oversimplified).
                    Yikes...I could only get this far in the list. I mean when 3 out of 4 bullet points are red flags then I kinda tune out. An evolutionary perspective is now an "appeal to nature" fallacy? I'll be sure to inform the scientists of this! Vegan with B12 supplementation is optimal? Heheh.....where to start. Silliness ensues.

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                    • #40
                      With B12 supplementation? Really? Why do you need B12 supplementation? Why do we have canine teeth?

                      I will ask again WHAT IS THE POINT? If you want to be on a vegan diet and take B12 supplementation (because I'm sure that would be the only thing that was needed), why aren't you on a vegan board discussing vegan recipes? This is NOT a fucking eat bacon all the time board. But I'll go you one further. You ready? If eating WELL RAISED meat takes 2-3 years off my life, fine, I'm happy to concede those few years for the wonderful satisfaction of eating meat.(drops mic)

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zombiewoof View Post
                        For those who don't like his voice! there is a full transcript of every video on his website: plantpositive - PlantPositive.com - A Fresh Look at the Paleo Diet
                        Hm, thanks for the link, but I guess I'd have to watch the videos to see the research. Honestly, I'd rather read it myself than take his word for it. So few people give an objective overview of literature. Most people (myself included) can't even evaluate most papers in their proper context.

                        Either way, it's always better to have both sides than to get lost in an echo chamber.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          You people are missing the forest for the tree's by arguing about vegetarianism. This isn't a vegan vs omnivore debate or an argument on the merits of meat eating. I think people are just trying to distract from the research presented in his video's. They were made to counter disinformation and sketchy conclusions. The people that seem personally offended by this should probably stop tying their whole identity up with a diet fad. He said going vegan is ultimately a personal decision and advises anyone that does to take a B12 supplement. He is quick to point out the benefits of plant based diets, but don't let that upset you all too much. To be honest if someone told me a few years ago that a vegan who calls himself plant positive was going to make a bunch of videos debunking the paleo diet I would have laughed in your face.


                          Originally posted by zombiewoof View Post
                          I really hesitate to try and boil down plantpositives work into a few sentences because there is a *huge* amount of stuff there. From my recollection though his overall thesis would be along the lines of:
                          • There is no such thing as the perfect human diet.
                          • However the closest approximation would be a vegan diet (with Vitamin B12 supplementation).
                          • This conclusion is arrived at by looking at the latest nutrition science, rather than approaching diet from an evolutionary perspective (which would be an example of the 'appeal to nature' fallacy).
                          • Apologies to the man himself if I have misrepresented him (I'm bound to have oversimplified).
                          He doesn't say veganism is the optimal diet at all. He also doesn't oppose looking at things from an evolutionary perspective either. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't like the irrational 'appeal to nature' fallacy used by many.



                          He exposes so many correlation/causations that people go with if it suits what they want to believe. LDL lowering has been proven to protect against atherosclerosis through multiple mechanisms, from diet, bile acid sequestents, LDL apheresis and drugs. People with different polymorphisms that affect different have been studied extensively. People who have genetics that have them maintain very low LDL throughout a lifetimes have greater life expectancy and arteries that stay in fantastic shape. Genetically high HDL hasn't shown the same benefits.
                          The animal experiments that induce and reverse atherosclerosis with countless animal species are so vast they provide a lot of insight to the people who have actually studied their whole life to understand this kind of stuff. They show the only way they have found induce plaque build up is to raise their serum cholesterol and maintain it for long enough. No other risk factors or like inflammation, smoke exposure or stress are able to act alone. Daniel steinberg actually said "To neglect this fact in a review about humans is to imply that the Darwinian foundation of biomedical research is invalid". Some hunter gatherers even have high levels of inflammation but low cholesterol and no heart disease. People here could at the very least admit LDL isrisk factor instead of the outrageous denial I read here often.
                          If you follow the original paleo or think that our evolution can tell us about what is physiologically normal cholesterol you'll probably agree with Cordain that optimal LDL appears to be around 50-70. Yet modern people living in sanitized environments eating high fat diets rarely achieve this. Even Cordain who has seemingly changed his stance to accommodate his target audience, still says high LDL is likely atherogenic. He even says it's ok to have plaque build up, as long as it doesn't break free and give you a heart attack. I think I would rather have disease free arteries instead personally. Can't pull the trigger if you don't load the gun. Of course, you can live your whole life with high cholesterol, but it's hardly a smart option for people that are interested in giving themselves the best chance at optimal health and longevity.

                          A lot of people try to get you to think low cholesterol is dangerous in an attempt to rationalize their own high cholesterol, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Cholesterol often falls in old age due to other illnesses which is one of the many reasons why you see the correlation weaken or sometimes even imply the opposite in the elderly.

                          Like the graph that apparently tells you cholesterol between 200 - 240 is best for all cause mortality. Apparently the correlation there implies causation, that's if you believe it enough, and ignore that most of the countries with low cholesterol and high mortality rate might have something to do with the fact that they are generally impoverished nations with poor sanitation and poor access to health care. While the countries with higher cholesterol and lower mortality are richer countries with top health care systems.
                          Amateur bloggers with agendas trying to jam and twist the science to make it seem like it all supports their views. Misinterpreting studies, making key omissions, mixing the arrows of causation around, taking things out of context, using misleading graphs, appeal to fake experts, making irrational arguments why we shouldn't eat certain foods, etc. That's paleo in a nutshell and these videos expose a lot of it. I think only the fruitarians can rival their level of WOO.
                          Last edited by Forgotmylastusername; 01-31-2014, 02:46 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
                            You people are missing the forest for the tree's by arguing about vegetarianism. This isn't a vegan vs omnivore debate or an argument on the merits of meat eating....
                            Oh, but I think it is. It is always worth noting when someone has already determined what they BELIEVE the optimal diet is THEN go to great lengths to cherry pick data and skew statistics to fit their bias. Do paleo BLOGGERS do this? Some do. But paleo is backed by scientists actually performing studies, getting published, and providing a better knowledge base. This PP guy? Nah. Add to this the "behind the curtain" act that this fella got going on and its all very weird. On the other hand I can't subject myself to more than that first video. I can read ten time faster than he talks in his nasal condescending monotone. Its just an utter waste of time. Like I said gimme a transcript with references and I might consider skimming it.

                            Perhaps someone who has only ever read a few paleo secondary blogs could get another POV from this guy. But anyone who has had the inkling to read the primary research can just save their time IMO. Actually that could go for paleo blogs too. Just go to the source.

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                            • #44
                              Forgotmylastusername,

                              Tell ya what, I can't subject myself to PP's condescending tone and strawmen but I appreciate your advice and take it into consideration.

                              Thanks.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'll eat any vegan/vegaterians share of good, aged ribeyes, roasts, leg of lamb, eggs, butter etc, etc, etc!!!!!!

                                Danny

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